[f-cpu] Re: Welcome (late threads)

[Carlos De Urresti Hannoh <lphalt@gmx.de>]

From: "Yann Guidon" <>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [f-cpu] meeting in Paris this evening

> hi !
> 
> The discussions about the server(s) are going on on both french
> and english mailing lists (curiously, the german one is mute...).
> i wish there was no langage barreer...
How will the language barrer will be applied in the near future when we
start to
take priority changes on the project or know that we already moved to
seul.org?
(Will we apply the different languages lists again?)

In my point of view keeping those localized versions could help people that
are not
capable to express their ideas in a well written english form (i include
myself ;>)
to put in the project their thoughts and maybe someone could help them to
translate, 
etc .. (of course this shouldn't THE rule, and everyone would be encoraged
to write at
the english list.)
> 
> Carlos De Urresti Hannoh wrote:
> > > hello everybody,
> >...
> > > Phase 0 will be to find a location, a network, a legal and official
> > > arrangement for the costs (electricity, climatisation...), putting
> > This might help a little bit :) I work on the first IDC (Internet Data
> > Center) in LatinAmerica. Giving a brief resume of the capabilities out
of it are:
> > (pretty fancy) Area of the Site: More than 7,000 km^2.
> hmmm i think you mean : "7,000 m^2." :-)

Sorry ;)
wonder... what if i had write euro km ;)

> 
> > Aprox 1.2 Gbit :) uplink without the emergency link. (And we can buy
only
> > the needed bandwith since if we choose here it most be at the
collocation
> > area).
> > 6 Electric Generators (Each one backing up all the site) + normal elect.
> > climatisation = less than 20 C (brrrrrr :>) just don't walk up the holes
> > were the air runs under -5 C :/
> > etc etc
> ok ok ok :-)

=) 

> however, if we use Celaro hardware, we'll have to check if the exportation
> is allowed to Mexico. The patent struggle with Quickturn makes selling
Celaros
> to US impossible. i'll ask the people at Meta Systems.

oki. i'll start a local research.

> People that know guys from Synopsys, Cadence, Axis, Ikos or Quickturn
> can already ask if they're ready to collaborate/sponsor the project.
> 
> > > a decent SUN (Solaris) (or a HP-UX) server that can do the
compilation,
> > > the account management, the job queue...
> > First off: I'm a Solaris user :> but situations make you change.
> > This company is 85% Telmex(Huge Monopolic Telco) and 15% HP so we might
get
> > a good price over a new HP machine if we sign the arrangement.
> > The good hint about this is that all the parts that would fail or broke
> > would be replaced by me:) and I can be pretty alert over the equipments;
of
> > course if the equipment is new we get all the warranties : ) and this a
cron if we
> > buy refurbished machines :/ we couldn't apply for them and in the long
term
> > this could hit us really bad :/
> > 
> > If you want me to start looking for prices just pass me down a line.
> 
> if you can ask the prices for a "decent" SUN (min 1G RAM and 20G HDD),
> then just go ahead, it will be helpful in any case.

Regarding this information i'm posting what i got (yg mentioned that the sun
option is
almost out of our field, specialy when only a little group of people are
willing to raise
funds for this project. Maybe in the futurue.

As we know, USiii still hasn't been market to the servers field.. so the
only way to go is
a blade 1000.. vs ultra 80 is only a little bit more effort .. and time
prices will be at
our side.

I requested an aprox bill for blade 1000 , USiii 900, 18.2 GB, 1 GB module
and i got this..
sighs.. at least those help us to give us a brief idea of the reality..
*which we might
already known ;/ * all prices are US dollars ;> besides the even wanted to
charge for the 
English only OS media at 125! and 50 more for the other localized versions..
When we can get it for free at sun.com ;) iso download and the localized
versions also..
anyway.. they told that they could rearrange the prices when I pick one of
their packages.. but after denaying to buy them the media, monitor, and their
crazy setup 
onsite fee(300).. i guess no progress could be done with them.. or not a
higher rate as 
getting all those free items from them..

blade 1000 (USiii 750, 512 MB, 18.2GB) - 10,995 (we can have 2 cpus)
512 MB upgrade (4*128MB) - 2,530 (i told them .. i'll expand.. sure.. with
the 8 slots
ocuppied..)
video connector adapter hd-15 - 39
subtotal: 13,564
Standard Warranty (1 year): 396
pseudototal: 13,960

ultra 80 (USii 450, 1 GB, 18.2GB) - 12,095
Standard Warranty (1 year): 1,008
pseudototal: 13,103

I wrote and maybe flooded with this..so trying to keep out some un-needed
info
should i post the usiii 900 prices.. or only keep them at my dreams? ;)
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De: Yann Guidon <>
> > > More than two years ago, we tried to see if we could
> > > put a PC on the net, connected to a FPGA board. It
> > > appears impossible for practical reasons but i have learnt
> > > a lot about emulators, they solve all the problems.
> > >
> > > Now, it's only the beginning of a new "project" because
> > > we need to federate other Free HW projects, in order to
> > For a starting place of the Free HW website I could offer a 256 k/bit
> > line(not a lot.. but for starting web server is more than enough. At
least I think
> > so. But not enough hardware :/ unless I run the web server on a P200
with 72
> > MB RAM.
> 
> It is nice and useful, but now :
>  - a root team must be carefully chosen
>  - we need a separate domain name. we can setup a subdomain of
> f-cpu.xxx (such as eda.f-cpu.org) but if this evolves as a trans-project
> server (if we receive help from other Open Hardware and Free Hardware
projects)
> a separate and neutral DN is desired in the future.

neutral organization will be the main problem.

> 
> > From: boucli27 at altavista dot net
> > Subject: Re: [f-cpu] Which machine to use
> > > The problem with the *Blade series is that first you pay
> > > a premium price, second they are still not reliable :
> > > a lot of them are DOA ( dead on arrival ), thus I think
> > > it should be wyser to stick to 'old' USII based servers.
> > Blade are doing fine now; no more than a week for delivery
> wow :-) 
> 
> > > I think we may have a premium class server for ~$15.000 --> $20.000
thus
> > > we will have to launch a subscribtion
> > > in order to get one of theses babies.
> > >
> > > I think I will be able to find $1.000 for this project.
> > > Who's next ?
> > May I? :)
> yeah :-) [i can't, unfortunately]
> 
> who is in charge of collecting the funds ?

For a starting point we could relay over paypal and someone with an account
in a US bank since wire transfer's fee are so high and even higer to send
them
as a money order. And then redirect from there.

> 
> I think that before we do everything, we have to :
>  - make a press release on slashdot, usenet etc...

I agree.. maybe the workshop in HAL will also make this explote. ;)

>  - wait for new contribution proposals (so we can spread the workload)
>  - ask for price lists and call for sponsors

Looking for sponsors, explaining later on.

> Let's set a milestone in two week. Maybe we'll be sure in one month.
> i count on you all to spread the word.
> 
> WHYGEE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Yann Guidon" <>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 6:47 PM
Subject: [f-cpu] about the EDA server(s) [quite longuish]

> hello,
> 
> i think that it's time to make a little summary
> about the project of setting one or several servers up,
> dedicated to EDA accounts for Free Hardware projects.
> I will mainly focus on EDA SW because HW emulation 
> is one step beyond, we have to get the first step done first.
> 
> 
> A) project organisation :
> 
> It clearly appears that this project is out of
> the scope of the core F-CPU project, which (i remember
> to the newbies) is to design a CPU core, that's all.
> 
> I feel that it is a good thing to separate the different
> sides of the F-CPU project, at least when the necessary
> means and knowleges differ from what is needed to the core goal.
> For example, the chipset and motherboard projects are necessary but
> the goal of F-CPU is not to design a motherboard. OTOH
> the different sides are closely bound together, mainly
> through ml communication.
> 
> Since the server(s) requires real HW with material presence
> etc, plus certainly monetary and legal conditions,
> it is natural to split the organisation at that point.
> 
> New project name, domain name + ml + CVS + etc. are necessary,
> as well as a core team, admins, a central server, and legal existence.

If we need to plan a root admin team, how would their members be selected?
Recalling the search for admins at seul.org's mailinglist a question was
exposed
and some people raised their hands. i know that developing and choosing a
root
team members is a verify thing because of the responsabilities,..
any ideas?

> 
> I don't think that it should remain F-CPU specific and other
> projects would benefit from that. As a rule of thumb, several
> projects listed in the OpenCollector database can apply and
> participate.

Thinking in the future and assuming that the neutral EDA localtion will be 
sucessful; the other projects could start thinking in contributing
"semi-sponosoring" with hardware (relocating their own facilities to the EDA
localtion and not fulling giving the ownership to the EDA project). when
this
stage is reached: how will the
neutral position will be managed.. or we won't accept semi-contributions
from
other projects?

> It is, on one hand, a matter of usefulness :
> if what we do is useful, i don't see why we shouldn't prevent
> other projects from benefitting from our efforts, as long
> as they are not "passive users" (they have to help).
I fully aggre, beside isn't this the purpose of the fcpu as the GNU has done
until now? :)
> On the other
> hand, i am not sure that we would attain a necessary critical mass,
> with only F-CPU team members. We certainly need others' help to make
> the project successful. I can think of the LEON and OpenCores
> projects, with which we could team up in a project-neutral
> organisation.
> 
> 
> B) Goal of the new organisation
> 
> It must be defined when all the team members are present.

?

> It requires a clear, short and precise description of what
> the organisation is, and is not.
> The F-CPU project certainly suffers from the same problems
> as other projects, so here's a first proposition :
> 
> "
> The goal of this project and organisation is to provide Free
> Hardware developers with free online design tools, without
> contraining him to buying anything or learn complex books.

books? :)

> 
> The purpose of this project is to promote Free Hardware projects
> and lower the entry effort for contributors. We want to
> allow people to contribute without discrimination (either
> monetary or expertise). The only constraint is that the 
> server users comply with usage restrictions and rules,
> related to security and licencing (all the developped files
> must be protected by the GPL).

This will be only functional over the own fcpu servers..

> 
> The discussion is open, this draft will certainly evolve.
> 
> E) Contributors
> 
> this project needs a root team and probably a surveillance commity,
> besides the legal stuff. This means that it is a fully serious project
> and responsible people are necessary. One will not be able to leave
> the project on a whim.
The flooding has shown the problem of a centralized or autoritative (one
person)
and the consecuences.. in this case relocating the list without the proper
planning in advance.

Lets hope in the future we can balance the responsabilites and knowlodge to 
evade the: "project on a whim"!.
> 
> I can't take the responsibility of this project : the F-CPU and
> other things are already taking all my time. I could however help
> on punctual cases, such as setting up a HW emulator (i have a rough
> experience in this era).

In this moment i can only help with the sys admin area, since i need to
learn
a lot .. at least reading the manual helps me to research for specific
topics 

> F) Routes
> 
> There are several and non-exclusive ways to achieve the project's goal.
> These routes will probably be explored parallelly, it is a good way to
> have at least something working if everything else fails.
> 
Giving a brief resume.
At my place we're trying to convince their univ. to bring back a
supercomputing
area which was desalocated in the late 80s, because none was developing 
or deploying it. The first phase is to give them an interesting method of
the
use of this area. At least on the Chemistry department a professor is
willing
to give us his support (one of the top ;>). I'm also working on a 'phases'
document to give it to the univ. as the initial plan. And if this success
our
plan is to bring companies into the project as sponsors since many of the
local
companies need processing data out of their actual limits; expecially on the
simulation area ;).  

As everything we need to start at the lowest level and currently i'm trying
to
build up a plan 9 lab but the cpu distribution gave me a bad look over it. I
would like to see parallel clustering joined with a distribution clustering
;)
Going back to reality.. we know of the huge process of programming over
parallel
but it'll a challange , not as fcpu, and hopefully some of the resources
will be
open for the cpu.. anyway we would have to write our own eda tools..(?)
hmm..
> All propositions are welcome. Lightweight solutions are most likely
> to succeed but will yield small results. EDA SW today is extremely
> expensive and the "lightweight" servers (no legal backing) will probably
> only have educational, freeware, GPL or public domain software, which
> won't be enough.
> 
> "heavier" servers will be much more difficult to setup but will be able to
> host proprietary software and hardware. their benefit and usefulness
> are higher, as well as the risks. Today's industry is very prone to
> suing ("Suing is human", cf EEtimes) and this eventuality is likely to
> ruin our efforts. If excessive prudence is necessary for this project,
> it is because a legal failure could doom the emergence of the Free
Hardware
> as a valid alternative in the industry.

:/

> 
> 
> H) Existing possibilities
> 
> 1) We can start to setup individual servers. There have been some
> proposals on the list. These "lightweight" solutions can be enhanced
> if CADENCE holds its promise to provide us with some of its SW.
> We'll have to be again in contact and get the licences for good.
> 
> 2) setup a legal, non-profit organisation. The idea of the SUN server
> has been studied, it will cost a lot and it is not realistic if few
> people participate.

It could come real option if we do a min. effort at our pockets and maybe in
1
year and half the SUN would become a reality. Meanwhile we can work with the
light path. When moving out to the "heavier" solutions we would know more
than
stoping and waiting for the real hw.. this is also create a huge redisegn on
the charts but also a better background.
> I have started to negociate with my ex-employer
> (Mentor) but it will be impossible without a minimal serious organisation.
> I try to find a way to get a second-hand HW emulator.
> This machine could be located at the EPITA (french engineeer school)
> or with the help of GOAS or CCC (in Germany), where we can setup an
> independent legal non-profit entity.
> 
> WHYGEE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From: "Yann Guidon" <>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [f-cpu] about the EDA server(s) [quite longuish]

> hi !
> 
> At last some reaction to the text :-)
> 
> Nicolas wrote:
> > Ben Franchuk a écrit :
> > > Yann Guidon wrote:
> > > (Never forget the BANDWIDTH of 747 full of CD-ROMS)
> > > A web site is need for FREE information to the world, but a server is
> > > not needed for creative engineers.
> > But we need rtl & gates simulator and a synthetiser, so how do you do
> > that ?
> > Alliance is big and [in part] GPL but never forget that it didn't manage
> > process in vhdl...
> 
> That is the node of the problem.
> I can do stuff, incl. manual, SW and documentation, but
>  - i can't do everything alone,
>  - other people need a common ground on which we can communicate.
> 
> the EDA server, as written before, is a mean brought to contributors
> so they can participate with the lowest possible access cost.
> Since the VHDL (or verilog or whatever, it's not the point) files
> are what matters, whatever we may write in the manual, we have to solve
> the EDA problem once for all.
> 
> my short term todo list includes : cleanup of the Oekonux conference
> files and preparation of files for HAL.

Any 'public todo' list for HAL?

> I meet Lionel this week-end
> and i hope that the f-cpu database will be setup.
> We have a few weeks to reorganise all the project.
> I hope that at least some lurkers will wake up...
> 
> read you soon,
> > nicO
> WHYGEE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From: "Yann Guidon" <>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [f-cpu] how to keep manual in other languages updated

> hello !
> 
> Antonio Díaz Zamora wrote:
> > hi
> > 
> > I am translating the current manual to spanish. I started from the HTML
version.
> > I worry about updates obsoleting the translation I am doing... Any
suggestion ?
> 
> wow great !
> 
> however, the most up to date version is in LATEX
> (you'll see, it's only a text file in fact, a bit like HTML)

I do recomend you this application:
ftp://www.ctan.org/pub/tex-archive/systems/win32/fptex/ . It will generate you a vdi file which can be read
with the inclued viewer.  Also you can still go for the code ;)

> and is stored at http://f-cpu.seul.org/manual/en/
> it's patch_yg_something.tgz (i don't remember all the filenames,
> sorry :-)) and it's several months old.
> If you have already started, you will see that the contents is
> almost the same. However i won't be as helpful as for the french
> and german versions, because i don't speak spanish :-/
> 
> I think that _now_ is a good time to start a mailing list dedicated
> to the manual... Maybe i'll finally end up using the CVS at GOAS
> because i don't know what happens with the CVS@seul.org.
> I'm sure that the maintainers will be happy to open a CVS project
> for the other translations and the VHDL.
> 
> salutations, and keep us informed !!!
> 
> > Antonio Diaz Zamora
> WHYGEE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Yann Guidon" <>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:46 PM
Subject: [f-cpu] i should be sleeping instead of writing weird stuff, but...

> hi,
> 
> i have come into contact with "Martyn Pollard" <mjp@cadence.com>
> and Cadence is still willing to provide the f-cpu developers with
> _individual_ licences for VHDL/verilog compilers and SW simulators.
> This is a first crucial step, but we have to solve at least two problems :
>  - what about a synthesiser ?
>  - what about running the software on a large online server ?
> 
> Those who want to start "small" and have a linux/win98/NT/2000 box
> can ask for a licence directly from mjp@cadence.com but otherwise,
> the others will have to wait until we find a solution to the server
> problem.
> 
> It appears that the "first phase" of the EDA farm project could be
> easily reached : we require a good athlon or P3 box with a large amount
> of RAM, connected with a fast link to the net.

I can add another machine for the farm but my aprox time for getting it is
like 3 months starting to count after HAL :/ 

But what will "farm" will actually mean aplied to EDA.. I'm not used to
EDA..
We'll have each machine working on different tasks? or? 

> A secure kernel with
> all quotas enabled would run the compilations and simulations in a batch
> queue. Of course, the licence for this server is not easy to get,
> i need your help to convince Cadence and the others.

What can we do to convince Cadence? 

> YG
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Von: Yann Guidon <>    
Betreff: [f-cpu] f-cpu.org/index.html updated 
Datum: Thu, 24 May 2001 03:21:53 +0200 
> hello,
> 
> http://www.f-cpu.org
> has been updated with some more acurate data
> and a few new features. It's getting heavier,
> a webmaster is still wanted...
May i apply? :)
> 
> mantis.f-cpu.org now points to the april.org
> server, the mantis SW is not setup. This should
> be done in the next days...
> 
> have a look,
> WHYGEE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Orage.
(Who do the work of @avanticorp.com at seul dot org) > Bad joke.. ;+>

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