Re: gEDA-user: PCB: Stale rat's nest?

[Ales Hvezda <ahvezda@xxxxxxxx>]

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time writing up all of your feedback.


> In the main Project Manager (`geda`) Window:

[snip all geda project bugs] 

	Yes, the geda manager is broken and needs to be updated.  I don't
	think there is any gEDA documentation (if there is let me know)
	that says people should be using it.

	I've made this threat before, but I will probably end up removing
	the geda manager, unless it gets some TLC.


[snip]
> * Seeing that the log always contains a few error messages (which are 
> actually harmless) regarding the configuration, it would be better
> if the log window did not pop up by default.  Put those messages in the
> Project Manager's log window instead, where they're more out of the way.

	You can control this via an rc keyword in a *gschemrc file.


> * With that newly created schematic file, gSchem starts out with an insanely 
> low zoom level, way too far away to actually read anything but the very 
> largest components.  Rather, the zoom should default to something that makes 
> any text on the screen easily readable, since text is generally always the 
> same size at the start of a project.


	Yeah, I'll look into fixing this.  You are not the first to
	mention this.


> * Call up the Library window, and select a simple part like a 7400.  Move the 
> mouse over the gSchem window (and set your focus to that window if 
> necessary).  Without clicking to place the part onto the schematic, change 
> the zoom level with z/Z.  Now move the mouse a little bit.  The part you had 
> pointer is.  The ghost will disappear the next time you scroll the screen, or 


	gschem does not support this sort of "transparent zooming/panning".
	I really ought to disable the ability to even do this.


> * Changing the Zoom level should *never* cause zoom in/out events to be added 
> to the undo history.  It is handy to make changes to a circuit, discover an 
> error, and be able to zoom in real close to some suspect region and do a few 
> undo's to watch for some critical change to happen (I've done this many times 
> in Eagle).

	This is a religious issue.  Different people have very different
	opinions on this.


> * If the gSchem Window loses focus, the part you had selected In the Library 
> Window will occasionally be unselected, even though the item is still 
> highlighted in the listing.

	I'll look into this.

> * As you know, most standard 74xx logic contain multiple gates per package.  
> There seems to be no way to tell gSchem to assign 2 or more gates to a 
> specific package.  Simply placing gate after gate onto the schematic should 
> automatically assign them to the minimum number of packages as needed to 
> contain those gates.  In other words, adding four NAND gates to the schematic 
> should result in one package being assigned, not four.

	In gEDA/gaf, the user is responsible for assigning refdes packages
	and slotting.  


> * gSchem should never require the user to manually give each part a unique 
> name, e.g. U1, C5, R22...  While it is somewhat easy to renumber all parts of 
> a specific type, it should not be necessary for the beginner to use that 
> function.

	See above.  Different people have different preferences in
	this regard.  I've seen so called automated slotting/refdes
	mechanism do *everything* wrong and you end up having to fix all
	the refdes/slotting information yourself anyways.


> * Since gEDA interfaces with PCB, it would be wise to adopt some of the 
> nuances present in PCB.  For example, holding control and clicking on a pin 
> or point on screen should start a brand new line (I recognize the right mouse 
> button ends the line, but it would be nice for consistancy).


	Historically gEDA/gaf and PCB were developed at different times and
	by different people.  Maybe in the future things will come together,
	but for now they are different.


> * As expected, there are a fair number of parts in gSchem's library that are 
> not in PCB's library.  GSchem should not allow you to place a part that is 
> not in PCB's library, or it should warn you first.


	gEDA/gaf does not only target PCB.  PCB is just one of many possible
	backends, so it will not limit available symbols to only PCB.


> * Keeping with the 7400 example.. Place four NAND gates from a 7400 on the 
> schematic.  How do I order the gates so that each one is assigned to 1/4 of a 
> 7400 package, with the proper pin numbering?


	This is the designer's responsibility IMO.  Truely automated 
	mechanisms cannot read the designer's mind.  Sooner or later you
	(or your circuit) will be burned by them.


> * Add a few nets between pins randomly, just so there's something there.  Now, 
> without altering the names/numbers of the four gates, tell gSchem to save 
> this file out.  Now, tell gEDA to create a board layout from it, it will 
> crash with this error:

	How did you create the board layout?  What are the exact commands
	you use here?   Ah, the lovely geda manager, yes, that is broken.


[snip]
> * Take those four gates, and use the Autonumber Text function to renumber 
> them.  Notice how they're *still* assigned to separate packages (look at the 
> pin numbers to verify).  You'll have four devices, numbered U1 to U4.  Now, 
> save the file and tell the Project Manager to create a schematic out of it.  
> It will crash, with the same type of error as above.

	Pleaes don't use the geda manager.  It is my fault that this 
neglected program has been distributed at all.  Sorry.

[snip]
> $ gnetlist --help
> gnetlist: invalid option -- -
> Usage: gnetlist [OPTIONS] filename1 ...filenameN
> etc etc.
> 
> Ok, not the first time I've had an apparently GNU program ignore the standard 
> --help command, that's fine... So I try following the help info that the 
> program spat out anyway..

	gEDA/gaf is not part of the GNU project, however, I do agree gnetlist
	should honor the standard command flag.

[snip]

	Before continuing, did you read the following document?  This would
	have greatly accelerated your figuring things out:

	http://geda.seul.org/docs/current/tutorials/gsch2pcb/tutorial.html


[snip]
> I recognise Eagle has it's bugs too, but this is a far simpler approach to 
> designing a board than the convoluted method I had to use to do the exact 
> same thing with gEDA and it's tools.  That schematic I drew at first, with 
> the four gates in it, is still sitting there waiting for me to find a way to 
> make a board out of it.

	Did you read the above tutorial before attempting to from schematic
	to PCB?

> Basically, gEDA has a long way to go before it can match Eagle in useability, 
> but it doesn't have far at all to go to match it in terms of actual 
> *capabilities*.

	Yes, gEDA/gaf does have a steep learning curve, but it does have
	reasonable documentation and tutorials.  The user is expected
	to spend a little time reviewing them.


> I really hope to see either gEDA or KiCAD (the other one I'm tracking) 
> surpass Eagle some day soon, so I can retire that damn crippleware of
> a program (Eagle) that I've used for way too long.


	gEDA/gaf is not a replacement for Eagle.  It does things very
	differently intentionally.  Kicad is more of a replacement
	for Eagle.  Kicad has more of an IDE like enviroment vs gEDA/gaf's
	open design flow (where it is easy to replace/augment every 
	last program/mechanism).

	You could always pay for the next step up for Eagle.  It seems
	like it meets most of your needs now.  In the meantime, gEDA/gaf
	will continue to evolve and improve. :)

	Thanks again for the feedback.

					-Ales