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FW: Project Independence - Tried it, and I like it so far. :-)
I was discussing a few things with Jean Francois, and at one point he
mentioned that this would be a good thing for the list... Well he was
right, so I am just swinging it there. So if it sounds like you are
jumping in to a conversation in the middle, it's because your are. :-)
A little background on me; I am a network/communication Engineer/Admin.
I have a lot of experience with NT, 95, Amiga, Mac, Apple II,
Baynetworks, Cisco... And Unix limited to shells while troubleshooting
network problems. I am far from clueless, but still new enough to see
the things that are missing. I am wanting to help in the Docs, Quick
Starts, Guides... All that unglamorous non-coding stuff. :-) We return
you know to our show already in progress...
>----------
>From: jfm2@club-internet.fr[SMTP:jfm2@club-internet.fr]
>Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 4:49 PM
>To: Sharp, Lee
>Cc: jfm2@club-internet.fr; elflord@pegasus.rutgers.edu
>Subject: Re: Project Independence - Tried it, and I like it so far. :-)
>
>> From: "Sharp, Lee" <Lee@PeakUSA.com>
>> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:19:53 -0600
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> X-UIDL: 146c6bb35f09a35e2c933bb2b43a1037
>>
>> Let me start out with the fact that it installed correctly first time
>> out. <Huzzah!> Some minor issues, but it was as easy as the former
>> front runner, Caldera. Once up, it had a lot more going for it than
>> Caldera. The least of which was later packages. :-) I haven't had a
>> chance to bang on everything, but so far I am impressed. I am about to
>> point a lot of friends at it, but before I do, we might want to address
>> a few issues. The least of which is 5-10 people on T1 and OC3 links
>> hitting your server at once. :-)
>>
>
>The box is at MIT and MIT must have something like a T2000 (Terminator
>:-) . In fact the limiting factor will be the Ethernet linking the
>FTP site to MIT's backbone
>
>> >Linux is now more than 1% of Windows. Problem is an FTP install is
>> >inherntly a geeky thing, not something you should do when you know
>> >little about Linux. If you never touched Unix you need a CD and paper
>> >doc. If I get Indy on CD then I can tell people to use Indy with
>> >either a book or an RH install manual. But I cannot recommend Indy to
>> >a beginner as long as we are FTP only.
>>
>> FTP is, or can be, just as easy. The problem is that it is too slow
>> over a modem... Even for experts. :-) The media is just the media, but
>
>And the people I aim have no ethernets at home outside USA.
>> bandwidth is an issue. The paper needs to be written, but a lot can be
>> done on the install directly. You need not paper to install Win95, and
>> that is one of it's strengths. And I ment Indy getting 1% of Windows
>> desktop users. If you want to dream, dream big.
>>
>> >You have to reinstall Windows if motherboard is changed or processor
>> >changed.
>>
>> Not true. It is generally a good idea, but you can move the hard
>> drive to a totally different machine, and it will just ask for the CD
>> full of drivers. It is generally a bad idea, but I have done it a few
>> times...
>>
>
>True. I changed my motherboard last summer. Vendor warned me I would
>have to reinstall Windows. I disbelieved him. Several months later a
>game I had just bought was misbehaving. Game editor's site pointed it
>was because Windows was accesing the drive in 16 Bios mode. The
>chipset's vendor site pointed that upgrading from a different chipset
>locked Windows 95 into 16 bit mode, that it was impossible to
>reconfigure it for accepting a new driver and that there was only one
>way out: reinstall it.
Agreed that getting windows out of tune only requires running it. An
amusing error with NT is upon boot it comes up with "Unable to find Last
Known Good menu." and locks. It has nothing to do with the menu, but
means the registry is full. :-) The point is that with most of these
problems, Windows will still function. Slowly and badly, <I know. How
can you tell...> but it will come up, and allows you to rip out and add
drivers relatively easily. It also has those nice yellow ! to tell you
if something is odd... To the new user, it seems Linux just doesn't
work, and there is nothing they can do about it.
>> >... Linux will be far easier when there is adriver in the CD
>> >accompanying your card/scanner/printer. But manufacturers are
>> >producing drivers for about everything but Linux even for systems
>> >whose maket share is not bigger like Macs and OS/2. Why? Because
>> >Linux has no powerful sponsors pressuring card manufacturers and
>> >because the minority and hackeristic culture in Linux makes for
>> >Linuxers accepting that fact. I would want have someone in the
>> >project starting a "We want drivers" campaign for geting Linux people
>> >to protest when they have to buy another equipmant than the one they
>> >were dreaming about. That person should also lobby manufacturers.
>
>> I think embarrassment is a great motivator. I would set up a low
>> bandwidth web site that lists hard ware that ships with Linux drivers,
>> and that which has drivers available, as well as that with no driver
>> support. <Like Xircom was> Three sections covering everything from
>> laptops to scanners... There would also be a way to submit your own
>> findings, so the database would grow. Soon, even Red Hat would link to
>> it, and the hit count could be used as pressure.
>
>I also want each Linux user who had to buy an older and cheaper model,
>or one of a competitor, or simply had to renounce to buy sending an
>e-mail to the manufacturer. And then someone mailing the manufacturer
>about Linux market share.
"Hi. I am with Project Independence and we had over 75,000 people
come to our site last week to find out you provided no Linux drivers.
Would you care to comment on Why?" :-)
<Big Snip>
>> The first time you log in to Caldera, it has a psudo-MOTD, I think,
>> that tells you what you need to run to setup and run X. After that, it
>> changes to the command you need to run to start X or KDE. A thing that
>> is VERY easy to do, and immeasurably helpful.
>
>That was a thing I wanted to do but had no time.
>
>> >Limits on Linux are set by the software available and the hardw are
>> >supported. But an easier distrib allows attracting more people to
>> >Linux (thus manufacturers have to support it to keep on the black) and
>> >changes sociology so you can hope there will be more user friendly
>> >software. Then you take new drivers and new software and iterate.
>> >You cannot make miracles.
>
>> Agreed. You have to start with ease, and a format for future ease.
>> I was thinking about doing for drivers what Red Hat did for software
>> with RPM. A file format that can be pointed to via NFS, SMB, or even a
>> DOS floppy. And a GUI program <CLI too of course> to manage adding and
>> removing drivers. This is a long range plan. :-) Still, the programs
>> for it are half written already. It might be easier to just build it
>> into Linuxconf.
>
>Also the plan is making an interesting distribution but with limited
>ambitions due to lack of manpower. Then announce it, get some people
>to use it, become excited and willing to work. :-) Then with their
>help do something better who in turn would attract more people.
>Snowball.
>
>That was what Linus did.
>
>> >I believed few people used ISDN outside germany. But AFAIK for
>> >practical purposes ISDN uses PPP and has the same problms than PPP
>> >through a modem: connection is not permanent. My ignorance is
>> >complete on ISDN
>>
>> ISDN is VERY big in Houston <where I live> and quite big in the other
>
>Houston. I knew that name before New York or Washington. Nasa's
>control center.
>
>> larger cities in the US. But most of the people use ISDN ethernet
>> routers like the Pipeline 50 from Ascend. It will auto connect, so your
>> computer thinks it is always on the net. It is just that the first ping
>> is slow. :-) Cable modems are just coming up as well. Mostly they are
>
>So we will have to add tools for ISDN. About Pipeline routers or the
>equivalent on Linux problem is that if you are charged for the fact of
>starting the link then it can quickly becaome expensive.
Actually, I was thinking more of a silent flag. Some way to tell it,
don't go to the router and spin it up unless you have to. However,
configuring the popular cards, and making apps for them would be nice
too.
>> ethernet bridges. This means more and more home systems are ethernet
>> machines with outside boxes that auto connect. This box could be a
>> Linux box with gated, but that would be better with Trinux or
>> something... Not in the scope of Indy. Still, however, there is some
>> setup delay, and a DNS query can lock a box while the call is set up...
>> Or a misspelling in a connection to thew computer downstairs can spin up
>> an expensive connection for a DNS lookup on a typo.
>>
>
>That is why I would like to introduce a preconfigured caching DNS
>server.
That would be so nice. It amazes me that more things don't have one.
DNS can cause amazing amounts of crippling so quickly...
>> >> This is my biggest gripe for Linux. So far the only place this isn't
>> >> a problem is Solaris. It just runs like a mid seventies Cadillac with a
>> >> 4 cylinder. :-) This is also a place where I could help. I want to
>> >> help, as I see a lot of potential with Linux, if it can ever break out
>> >> of the computer room mindset.
>
>> >I thought Cadillac motor had twelve cylinders or so. Am I right?
>
>> You see my point. Solaris is slow on a fast machine. Very pretty,
>> and nice features, but too damn slow to drive. :-) However, I am not
>> above stealing a few of there user friendly ideas.
>
>Neither am I. Only that I never touched Solaris.
>
>> >The SVGA server does not work with unsupported cards. The VGA server
>> >works with everything but it allows only sixteen colors and the
>> >guaranteed res is 320x200: 640x480 is for lucky people. It is used by
>> >XF86Setup.
>
>> Doh! Didn't know that... However, the point is still valid...
>> There needs to be a fallback server that will work on just about
>> anything you through at it. At least work well enough to fix what is
>> wrong, browse the web for new drivers... And as 320x200 is smaller than
>> most windows, it might have to have a virtual desktop as well.
>
>No. The virtual _screen_ is taken from unused video memory. If you
>are out of luck the VGA server will believe you have 32K of memory
>like a 1990 VGA card. That allows only 320x200 at 16bpp.
>
>Your only chance is the virtual desktop feature of windows managers.
>
>> >A developer mirror would be _great_. Otherwise I would have to make
>> >acrobatics for newer releases.
>
>> I can help with that. As long as my bandwidth doesn't effect my
>> company enough for them to notice, I can do whatever I want. It would
>
>Problem is when we will be pushing the distrib to MIT. A 1G upload.
>Of course we would do it off hours. Alternatively you send them a
>couple of CDs but that is slower.
Still... A one time push, verses a constant access. Also, I though
space was the big problem at MIT. Anyway, if you need it, you got it.
>> be no trouble to set up a box in the server room. We have a 576k pipe
>> to the internet, and our upstream is hooked into three backbones. The
>> distrib seems quite good, and I like the direction you are going, so I
>> am willing to put some weight behind it. Also, I can burn a CD or two
>> so that my buds and I don't have to slam MIT. :-) What do you need from
>> me to be able to lay out a CD? Just an FTP site? <I do not have FTP
>
>Unpack the two big Tgzs under the distribution directory. You will
>find an Independence directory. Mkdir an RPMS dir under it. Download
>all the RPMS in the distrib to it. That is all you need but you could
>want to add the docs in the RedHat CD who are presently not in the
>site. Also I don't know how you will handle permissions with your NT
>box.
So the two TGZs contain everything I need on the CD? And I don't
want to go looking for the docs... I may give it a shot tomorrow.
>
>> running on anything right now, but could set something up reasonable
>> quickly> Or, could you just hide it on your FTP for a day while I grab
>> it, make an ISO, and cut a few. I could have the developer box up
>> sometime next week.
>
>> >And tell me about problems so I can fix them.
>
>> So far, no bugs, but some "issues." :-)
>> First, why is there no default site in the FTP install screen? It is
>> a lot to type, and there is room for a lot of error.
>
>Because people could be willing to use a mirror.
FreeBSD has a nice menu for mirrors... Not sure how, and it has been
a while.
>> This is just an observation, but one of the most confusing things
>> about partitioning a drive is knowing what sizes you need. It would be
>> nice to have a help button that talks about the partitions required, or
>> recommended, and the sizes and why. It would be real nice to be able to
>> select an amount of space <This drive only, for example> and have it
>> configure a recommended partition scheme based on workstation or server.
>> <Stolen from Sun>
>
>Yes
>
>> When my xserver failed auto probe it bounced me back to clock
>> setting. This is a bit unclear... There should be some better failure
>> feedback. Especially since the server worked in that config, just
>> didn't auto probe. :-)
>> The first time you log in to a Sun box, it brings up a web browser
>> with a beginner tutorial in it. Also, all docs are html so you can set
>> up an autodoc web server, or brows the doc CD in a Windows box with a
>> web browser. Nice feature... Put the hooks in, and we can add docs and
>> modify the docs directory as needed.
>
>We could do something like that by shipping a web page pointing to the
>/usr/doc/HTML directory. Apache works out of the box in Indy provided
>you install it.
We don't even need Apache up. Just set the default desktop to open
the first time with a web browser open to the main page. If they close
it, it wall save that preference. The directory could be pushed to a
web page, or just viewed.
>> On the whole, I am very happy. I am sure I will come up with more
>> things as time passes, and more ways to help other than saying "fix
>> this" imperiously. :-) If you can think of anything else I can do now,
>> just let me know. Nice job!
>
>I think we should switch the discussion to the mail list. Seeing
>people working or telling positive things about the distrib is a good
>way to put to work people who are presently just reading traffic. An
>empty mail list makes them believe project is dead.
You have a point.
Lee