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Re: Debugging
Well, if everyone took that approach, our desktops would be sluggish
things written in BASH-Shell-Script that chewed up terrabytes of RAM and
required a Cray.
It's also much more difficult to distribute those types of apps... at the
expense of high-level you have more dependancies... and I'm looking at
eventually making this easily, and widely used...
You claim the developers are harder to find or whatever... but that
doesn't jive with the fact that there's such a HUGE library of apps out
there, written in C... the largest Apps in the community are being
written in C... whatever.
Anyway... we won't agree, so I'll quit. Sorry I mis-understood you or
whatever... discussion closed.
On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:51:17PM -0800, Aaron Turner wrote:
>
> Dude. Chill. Relax. Don't take things so personally. Nobody is calling
> you a moron. I understood *exactly* what you're talking about. Hence my
> use of the phrase "web site engine", rather than "web pages". You and I
> just see things differently, I would rather leverage existing software
> such as Apache, MySQL, and Perl (and the vast human resources) than
> develop my own engine/database for storage and retrevial. I'm just not
> that good.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, Jason Pincin wrote:
>
> > You're missing my point totally Aaron. You basicly just wasted a whole
> > bunch of hot air here in this email cuz yur preaching to the choir. I'm
> > not saying we develop the web site in C. Jesus... do you think I'm a
> > moron??? When I talk about C development, I'm talking about the NEXT
> > project. ODS. And that will be an application on the level of something
> > like MySQL or PostgreSQL... and those type of Apps you will not find
> > written in Perl because the speed diff in that enviroment is significant.
> >
> > Now, before you waste any more time on this, try to comprehend what I'm
> > really saying. Thanks.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 12:29:20AM -0800, Aaron Turner wrote:
> > >
> > > Jason,
> > >
> > > Who writes web apps in C anymore? EVERYONE is doing ASP, PHP, mod_perl,
> > > Java Serverlets, or some other high-level language. The reason is that
> > > these tools are making the execution speed difference gap smaller and
> > > smaller, whiles making the time-to-market faster and faster. No, I
> > > wouldn't write a disk-defragger in Perl. Nor, would I build a web site
> > > engine like the LKB in C.
> > >
> > > I think you will quickly learn that the speed advantages you'll find in C
> > > are not only less than you expect, but greatly outweighted by the
> > > requirements placed on the coder. As long as I am a part of the LKB, I
> > > will not support a port to C or C++. It just doesn't make any sense for
> > > us to move in that direction while the rest of the world is moving in the
> > > opposite.
> > >
> > > I feel that a C/C++ port would prevent us from ever gaining a reasonable
> > > developer base, and that is one of my major concerns. Go back and read
> > > the emails from the developer interest forms. Notice how few hours people
> > > can spend on our project. If you can get people interested in working on
> > > the project because it will help them in their professional carrers,
> > > you'll find people are much more interested in helping. Right now people
> > > who know mod_perl are in VERY HIGH demand and are commanding premium
> > > salaries. Working on the LKB would be very interesting to them since it
> > > allows them to show off and hone their skills. I'm sure the same could
> > > be said of JavaServerlets coders as well. There aren't many web C++
> > > positions from what I can tell.
> > >
> > > Anyways, we've hashed this enough I think. It's obvious we won't agree,
> > > and that's ok. We'll worry about that when the time comes. We have more
> > > pressing issues to deal with for now anyways.
> > >
> > > Anyways, my email/web/irc access for the next week will be limited at
> > > best. I'll try to keep in touch as I work on the CmdSchedule script.
> > >
> > > -Aaron
> > >
> > > On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Jason Pincin wrote:
> > >
> > > > > And franky, I'm not sure OO is this silver bullet you make it out to be.
> > > > > OO programs are slower and OO adds additional complexity and overhead.
> > > >
> > > > Don't believe me. Look at the truely LARGE projects goin on... they all have an OO design. There's
> > > > reasons for that. OO adds complexity? Hrm. Well if we hadn't implimented an object system, we'd be
> > > > SOL right now when small things changed... object systems protect you... but nevermind that...
> > > >
> > > > > My point isn't that we should choose Perl over Python or C++, or OO vs
> > > > > non-OO. My point is that you need to get developer buy-in on whatever
> > > > > language we use. If you want to get out of coding and start looking at
> > > > > more big picture things, then this should be very important to you. I
> > > > > can't stress this enough. If you want to code forever, then do what you
> > > > > will. If you want to get out of coding like you always tell me you do,
> > > > > then let the developers decide what to do.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not looking at this from an LKB perspective when I say C++. When I re-write the code, it will NOT
> > > > be for the LKB. It will be for a seperate project entirely... and it will be an application, not a
> > > > service, and it will be C/C++. My hope is that when that project is usable, the LKB will migrate to
> > > > it... and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't... for I never plan to shrink my involvment in it...
> > > > so...
> > > >
> > > > Thats why the language isn't open for discussion. :) For an actualy application such as what I have
> > > > in mind... a server/daemon... Perl/Python/PHP... nothing can touch the speed of C. And that's what'll
> > > > matter too me then :)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jason Pincin
> > > > Linux Knowledge Base Project Leader (http://www.linuxkb.org/)
> > > > http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~chardros/
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Aaron Turner, Core Developer http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~aturner/
> > > Linux Knowledge Base Organization http://www.linuxkb.org/
> > > Because world domination requires quality open documentation.
> > > aka: aturner@vicinity.com, aturner@pobox.com, ion_beam_head@ashtech.net
> > > The difference between `Unstable' and `Usable' is only two characters: NT
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Jason Pincin
> > Linux Knowledge Base Project Leader (http://www.linuxkb.org/)
> > http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~chardros/
> >
>
> --
> Aaron Turner, Core Developer http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~aturner/
> Linux Knowledge Base Organization http://www.linuxkb.org/
> Because world domination requires quality open documentation.
> aka: aturner@vicinity.com, aturner@pobox.com, ion_beam_head@ashtech.net
> The difference between `Unstable' and `Usable' is only two characters: NT
--
Jason Pincin
Linux Knowledge Base Project Leader (http://www.linuxkb.org/)
http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~chardros/