Re: [tor-dev] building from source in a 64-bit windows environment..

[Zack Weinberg <zackw@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 12:44 AM, not me <anemenja@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> IMNSHO, its dense to even want to use pointers in this way. Why the
> hell are you converting pointers in this way in the first place, its
> just asking for a horrible mess.

This is actually a normal and useful thing to do in C.  (I think
you're used to C++, where it is indeed much less useful due to the
richer variety of abstractions.)

Without having looked into this in much detail, I suspect that most of
the cases where this comes up in Tor are due to passing a numeric
value as data to a callback API that's specified in terms of void*.
Note that this is strictly speaking casting an _integer_ to a
_pointer_ and back and expecting this not to lose information, but the
compiler can't tell which way round it's being done.

> A long is not guaranteed to be the same size as a pointer

A long _was_ guaranteed to be _at least as large as_ a pointer in C89,
and Microsoft still claims conformance to C89, not to any newer
version of the C standard, despite this willful violation.  (It is not
a C99 violation.  See my other message.)

> if you're doing this, you're doing it wrong

I think if you read the code you will find that there is no better way
to do what it is doing in C.

[re POSIX]
> Funny, I do it all the time without problem, of course I generally
> avoid standards like posix which despite saying its portable, actually
> isnt. Although TBF, osx is my big exception, as it feels more like
> writing c on a sunos 4 box than anything modern. Then again, I also
> get an easier out by preferring C++ anymore and making use of the STL
> which allows me to avoid a lot of related pitfalls (specifically
> thinking of file operations).

Your experience is precisely the opposite of mine, then.  POSIX.1-2001
functionality, including most of its optional bits, is reliably
available and correct everywhere except Windows in my experience.  OSX
does give me grief sometimes but generally only due to its insistence
on doing shared libraries differently from everyone else.  And the STL
is nice and all but I don't think the C++ standard library *has* any
filesystem stuff other than iostreams, which are not particularly
helpful (maybe they added something in C++11?)

...
> Either way, I wasn't referencing those so much as things like vastly
> superior heuristics at reordering variables, being especially careful
> with function pointers and putting them into registers, etc--
> nevermind things like exception handling that doesnt negate all of the
> stack/heap/etc cookies, so on and so forth. Put quite simply, if
> you're using mingw to ship anything serious for a windows platform,
> you're being irresponsible with your users computers. MSVC express is
> free as in go download it now, so there's really no excuses anymore.
> This doesn't even touch that it's actually a better compiler in terms
> of the performance of the code generated.

I can't really comment on this not having looked at codegen
differences in detail, but I think the benefits of much of this
hardening stuff are wildly overblown.  Are you familiar with the
current state of the art in bypassing them?

Anyway, like Nick I would be happy to see MSVC support patches.  I
suggest you look into the possibility of using the existing
autotools-based build system to drive MSVC; I understand that this is
supported in the latest automake, and it would mean that the build
harness is much less likely to bitrot.  You would still need the MSYS
environment to run the build in, but you wouldn't be using their C
compiler.

>> It is not clear to me why you need Tor to be 64-bit.  It runs as a separate process and acts as a local network proxy.  It should be able to do
>> that just fine for 64-bit processes while continuing to be 32-bit itself.  Please clarify.
>
> I really hate this line of logic, look I get it that this code was
> written obviously sorta ad-hoc and targeted with only 32-bit in mind
> and that extending it to 64-bit has been a bit of a process and that
> the obvious advantages to most users are going to be mildly neglible
> and whatever performance increases they gained are going to be lost in
> the network, but it drives me nuts that the answer is for everyone
> just to stop using the full potential of their computer

I use "this line of logic" to try to decide on priorities.  We
obviously like the idea of that 15% performance gain due to the bigger
register set, if it pans out, and there are other known concrete
benefits to going 64-bit (better ASLR entropy, higher-performance
cryptographic primitives in OpenSSL, that sort of thing) but we don't
know if it's worth sinking a bunch of developer time into it compared
to other things we could be doing.  If there is a specific thing that
you can't do right now because the program runs as 32-bit (and not
just because that makes it slower) then suddenly 64-bit builds are
more interesting.

> more so, I'm
> not the typical user and will be dealing with very very large datasets
> and have requirements elsewhere (ie in the database) that just make it
> more of a project to inverse simply for tor than its worth.
> Truth be told, I have very little interest in the overall package of
> tor, utilizing the proxy, or one of the million and one front-ends
> that really serve no purpose-- the interest in tor itself is the
> existing infrastructure, the network that already utilizes it. I was
> investigating the libonionrouter package, because when I saw it I
> thought 'finally! someone did all the heavy lifting and it wasnt me"
> and then realized it was just a wrapper around the tor code base,
> which is how I got here.
>

It would help us understand where you're coming from if you talk a
little about your larger goals.  What are you trying to do for which
the existing network of Tor nodes is useful but the existing software
is not fit for purpose?

zw
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