Thus spake Nick Mathewson (nickm@xxxxxxxxxxxx): > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Mike Perry <mikeperry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > [...] > >> There are modes that are supposed to prevent this, and applying them > >> to a decent wide-block cipher might solve the issue. IGE is one of > >> them [IGE], but it turns out to be broken by an attacker who knows > >> some plaintext. The Accumulated Block Chaining [ABC] construction is > >> supposed to fix that; I'm not too sure whether it's correct or > >> efficient. > > > > Am I crazy to think we might try to stop the bleeding of tagging attacks > > by figuring out a way to use ABC or IGE mode as a stopgap until people > > can code and evaluate new constructions for performance and timing > > side-channels? ABC/IGE would "only" involve a mode change, rather than > > an entire relay protocol upgrade and new cipher coding.. > > ABC or IGE wouldn't help us much on their own without a wide-block > cipher, and IGE is just plain broken. (See explanation below.) > > Remember, in the document I originally sent, I was talking about using > ABC or some other corruption-propagation mode at a block level. That > requires a wide-block cipher, though. And it turns out we can do > better if the corruption-propagation is part of the wide-block idea. > > We'd also burn our performance on platforms without AES acceleration, I think. > > > IGE might also actually exist in OpenSSL: > > http://www.links.org/?p=137 > > > > It also sounds like IGE is only broken if we try to use it for > > authentication.. We don't really need that property, do we? What we > > really want is the plaintext corruption property at the middle node upon > > ciphertext modification.. > > That _is_ a kind of authentication, or an analogue to it. And the > point is that an adversary can repair a hole in the stream, and *stop* > the plaintext corruption. So IGE does not deliver the property we > would want for it, even if we could use it. I am still wondering if it is possible to eliminate enough consecutive regions of known plaintext to make this acceptable for the short-term, until we figure out the wide-block thing for real. From the attack here: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@xxxxxxxxxxxx/msg06599.html it looks as though as long as we can avoid 32 consecutive bytes of known plaintext (two consecutive 128bit cipher blocks), we can prevent hole-closing. If you want to know why I'm crazy enough to still be wondering this, see subsequent paragraphs. > Check out this thread, and the stuff it references: > http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@xxxxxxxxxxxx/msg06599.html > > > We could also remove a lot of known plaintext by replacing zero-fill > > with random fill in RELAY_RESOLVE, RELAY_BEGIN, and other short relay > > cells. That should only be expensive at the client... > > So long as there is a block's worth of known or guessed plaintext, IGE > fails to ensure that changes propagate forward. Like, 16 bytes worth > of guessable HTTP in a payload (if you're thinking about this in a > non-wide-block scenario). Hrmm.. I think that failures after the stream is established are way less dangerous than ways you can tag and cause failures *before* the stream is established. In the pre-established case, Tor keeps retrying transparently behind the user's back until it gets a compromised exit. In the post-established case, the user is completely unable to use Tor 80% or 90% of the time, because the circuit is torn down *after* their user agent has begun sending data.. In other words, at least we would fail closed. This reminds me of something I also wanted to ask about. Technically for the tagging attack, all we need to authenticate is circuit construction and RELAY_RESOLVE and RELAY_BEGIN. Might there be ways to get this without the expense and complications of either truncated MAC's or wide-block ciphers? Or at least remove known-plaintext from *those* cells? > Two general process thoughts: > > * I may be saying this from an overabundance of caution, but: I don't > think we should use cryptographic primitives and constructions with > known flaws, even if we can't see a way for them to hurt us right now, > and even if we can come up with a solid-seeming argument for how those > flaws can't hurt us.. That's how we got into our AES-CTR mess in the > first place. I would argue that where we *really* need an overabundance of caution is to ensure we provide the agility to change the cipher mode/construction for this scheme in a very short period of time. I don't think our *real* woes are because we didn't think hard enough about cryptography or the security properties of AES_CTR. They're because we fixed the cipher and mode at "AES_CTR", and now we're going to be stuck with vulnerability to a very dangerous attack for years.. "If you're typing the letters AES into your code, you're doing it wrong." Based on this idea, I'm wondering if we should spend more of our time thinking hard about making the relay protocol be able to support changing the construction/primitive so we can support a readily available but non-ideal mode for 0.2.4.x, but then upgrade to something stronger for 0.2.5.x. (And when *that* construction/implementation turns out to be flawed or have side-channels, we can switch again in 0.2.6.x). If we spend time on ensuring this agility instead of pondering the deep magic of wide-block ciphers, we might be able to roll out AES_IGE + eliminate consecutive regions of pre-established relay cell known plaintext for 0.2.4.x, and then save the deep magic for 0.2.5.x or beyond. I looked through Proposal 202, and I don't see any mechanism for switching constructions/cipher choices in there? > * I know everybody wants our crypto problems to get solved, but it's > critical to get this stuff right. I think that the way to do right by > our users is by taking the time we will need to design the right thing > properly, rather than jumping into something halfcocked. We all > acknowledge that it's easy for people and organizations to screw this > stuff up: so let's take our time and actually come up with something > solid. Against the current pain and badness of our current system, we > must weigh the potential harm of jumping precipitously into something > that turns out to be broken because we didn't think about it hard > enough. Will I ever be able to convince you of the value of "jumping early and often?" ;) Related, have you seen this drunken rant (I'm linking to a summary because the original rant is very TL;DR): http://cryptochaos.com/liberal-vs-conservative-software-engineering I think one of the main reasons most Tor folks find my development style so obnoxious is because I'm definitely from the extreme-liberal school of thought :). > And a more general observation: > > * I think the only thing we could get designed & analyzed enough to > include in Tor 0.2.4 would be hmac-and-pad, which nobody actually > likes much. I think that by the time we get anything good here well > designed and discussed enough to reach a sensible consensus about it, > it will be 2013, and time to start adding features to 0.2.5 (at the > earliest). > > So here's to getting it right! I agree.. But if we don't leave room to get the crypto wrong and still swap it out quickly, we're going to be here again in another year or three, being even more sad than this time :/. -- Mike Perry
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