Re: [tor-relays] Who is running the two biggest Exits in the network?

[Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Duncan <dguthrie@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Paul:
>>
>>
>> I agree with that part.
>>
>> But sometimes it helps to look and think things from an extreme point of
>> view:
>> Let's assume the whole TOR would be anonymous in a way that you cant
>> see contacts not even nicknames. Where in this scenario should TRUST
>> derive from? Would you or anybody rely on that network, if you not at
>> least know a certain number of people who give their dedication, work,
>> money, for the project, people with total conviction doing the right
>> thing. I guess you wouldn’t - at least I wouldn’t do so. So now you
>> can go back, step by step and ask how many of those people, with how
>> many servers under their control you need, until you come to the point
>> where it's not enough any more.
>
>
> Firstly, remember that it's Tor not TOR! :)
>
> I think it is important to remember that malicious nodes are part of the
> threat model, with the caveat that we assume that we are not faced with a
> global adversary that can see all traffic flowing in, out, and between.
> This problem of lack of contacts, as nusenu wrote, it is important to be
> able to contact people (I was wrong on that one before, so thanks for the
> correction), but it can be faked by people with bad intentions.
> I don't think we should trust the nodes per se, but we are assuming that the
> malicious nodes are not all controlled by the same person, or groups.
> This is actually a great example of where we should be using and pushing for
> hidden services - by doing that we eliminate having to put some degree of
> trust into the exit node operators. Good practice such as checking
> signatures on files, using an encrypted connection, etc, are all necessary
> with or without using Tor.
> It's also a fun exercise to do a trace route on your regular Internet
> connection. Often it goes on a quite esoteric route, through multiple
> routers, and through multiple countries. It is worth remembering that with
> Tor, we can kick bad nodes off the network, if we have reason to believe
> they are acting maliciously or are likely to do so.
>
>> As I personally prefer having a high number of known volunteers, I can
>> tell that I dislike two or three servers - holding more than 4.5%
>> Exit-prob. during peak time -run by (a) person(s) nobody knows -
>> especially when there is a very high probability that they attack
>> useful targets
>>
>> http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/762-Attacked-Over-Tor.html
>> !
>>
>
> Again, it's important to understand that even if the volunteers are "known"
> to the extent there is plausible contact information, that they create a
> MyFamily configuration, even then, they may have their software compromised,
> they may be coerced, or they may harbor downright bad intentions.
> I would also be quite uncomfortable with a high number of volunteers that
> have some mark of trust. It centralizes too much, and I believe that would
> be a point of weakness. There already are a number of people who are
> well-known in the Tor community, and run large relays, one should note.
> Furthermore, it is worth noting that the article there is really quite
> flawed for a number of reasons - e.g. misplaced faith in GeoIP, surprise
> that poorly written malevolent bots with exist, misunderstanding about how
> to contact the Tor project - but that has been discussed elsewhere, no
> doubt. At any rate, I am unsure how it demonstrates that we need known
> people to run relays.
>

There are two different approaches here:

(1) require contact info for each relay
(2) require relays to run by known people

(1) gives a contact point to use in case the relay is broken or needs
to upgrade. I received such messages several times and all of them
were useful.

(2) makes it harder for one single malicious party to run majority of
nodes (Sybil attack) and it also reduces response time (as operators
would use their main e-mail address rather then fake that they are
unlikely to check daily).

I think both (1) and (2) aren't worth it. (2) doesn't provide 100%
protection against Sybil attack because a malicious party can hire
real people to run infected relays from their homes. Regarding (1) it
is also not needed, because most relays work well and if a relay
misbehaves and doesn't provide correct contact information, it can be
excluded from the network.

-- 
Best regards,
Boris Nagaev
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