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Re: SEUL: Re: Berlin is openning up! YES!!!!!

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   From: Luka@mail.club-internet.fr (Peter) <luka@mit.edu>
   Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:03:17 EDT
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   loren wrote:
   >The point is that Berlin is still vaporware and  GGI which it is strongly
   >based on is still in early alpha (0.0.9).  I really think Berlin and GGI are
   >good ideas, and we should support them, but not solely.


The point is: one of the main drawbacks of LINUX in the eyes of many
people is lack of software, specially commercial one.  And that
despite its support of X Window.  And Berlin has a lot less than X.  And
what about commercial software?  And X is now proven and stable, can
Berlin make similar claims?   No.

Sorry but forget about Berlin for some years.

   >I think we should find
   >(or patch togeather) a "GUI" (used loosley) toolkit that would work WITH THE
   >*SAME* API under multiple enviornments.  Enviornments that come to mind are
   >X, MGR, Berlin, GGI, SVGAlib, and ncurses. I think that support for DOS &
   >Win* would help us build an installer with the same basic Look-n-feel.
   >This way we give the users a choice  as to how THEY want to use our software.

   this is exactly what i'm thinking right now.
   objections to this plan...?
   thoughts on feasibility?

First: Probably unfeasible.  These graphic environments have wildly
different programming interfaces.  And of course if you want to let
them true freedom of choice then you have to port every 

Second: I have used MGR.  Not bad.  Limited respective to X.  A lot
less resource intensive but that was a factor in 386 with 4 Megs of
memory.  Few software for it.  As far as I know it is virtually dead.

THird: SVGAlib is very good for games because it is very fast.  But it
is a BIG security hole.  Every program must run setuid root.  Base
software on SVGA lib and we will soon have a virus invasion: SVGALIB
games are an ideal vehicle for them.  So it is the first thing I
uninstall.  Furthermore there are a lot of cards supported by X and
not by SVGAlib, specially modern cards.

Fourth: ncurses.  Are you kidding?  People are used to graphics, the
kind of people SEUL is aiming to strongly dislike character based
tools.  You can base config tools on it in case they have problems
with X but few people will accept curses for day to day work.

FIFTH AND MAIN: You forget the goals of SEUL: Simple End User Linux.
You are not making a hackers distribution.  When planning for end
users YOU must make choose what is good for them: if you force them to
make choices, they will choose wrong and worse they will be confused,
and when confused they will find SEUL is not simple at all.  Choose
the best, give them only one possibility and try to make things
install automatically.  That is the lemma when dealing with end users.

			Jean Francois Martinez

==================== The Linux.  Use the Linux, Luke! =======================

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