Re: [tor-talk] Clarification of Tor's involvement with DARPA's Memex

[Yasha Levine <yasha@xxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks for this explanation, Roger. I have a couple of follow-up questions: 

1) How much is this DARPA contract/grant worth?
2) Did Tor developers sign NDAs or any other kind of contract that bars you from discussing certain parts of the project publicly?

Thanks!
YL


----
Yasha Levine
Pando.com



> Roger Dingledine arma at mit.edu <mailto:tor-talk%40lists.torproject.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Btor-talk%5D%20Clarification%20of%20Tor%27s%20involvement%20with%20DARPA%27s%20Memex&In-Reply-To=%3C20150419232637.GK8172%40moria.seul.org%3E>
> Sun Apr 19 23:26:37 UTC 2015
> 
> Previous message: [tor-talk] Clarification of Tor's involvement with DARPA's Memex <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2015-April/037532.html>
> Next message: [tor-talk] Clarification of Tor's involvement with DARPA's Memex <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2015-April/037555.html>
> Messages sorted by: [ date ] <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2015-April/date.html#37538> [ thread ] <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2015-April/thread.html#37538> [ subject ] <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2015-April/subject.html#37538> [ author ] <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2015-April/author.html#37538>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 05:38:37PM +0100, Thomas White wrote:
> > there is some references to DARPA collaborating with some
> > developers from Tor Project. I'd like to ask the developers of Tor to
> > clarify what this involvement entails and why effort is being put
> > towards a LE tool instead of working on hiding Tor users through
> > improving anonymity or developing more circumvention based-tech.
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> Thanks for asking. I apologize for not explaining these answers
> earlier. I'm still trying to find the right balance for my time between
> mentoring people in the Tor community vs better broader communication too.
> 
> Let me give you some background, and then I'll answer your question.
> 
> First of all, yes indeed we've been getting some funding from the
> Memex project. This is what has allowed us to pay attention to and move
> forward on some of the really cool things we've been working on lately
> for hidden services:
> 
> * Fixing many performance and consistency problems with hidden services,
> e.g.:
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/11447 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/11447>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13211 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13211>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13447 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13447>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13700 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13700>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/14219 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/14219>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/14224 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/14224>
> 
> * Fleshing out the design and analysis for the "direct onion service"
> option that folks like Facebook want:
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2015-April/008625.html <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2015-April/008625.html>
> plus discussing other tradeoffs between upcoming design choices:
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2015-April/008597.html <https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2015-April/008597.html>
> 
> * The work to let Tor controllers configure a hidden service directly
> without using the torrc file, which the Globaleaks folks (among others)
> are really excited to start using:
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/6411 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/6411>
> 
> * The privacy-preserving statistics that let us conclude numbers like
> "3-4% of Tor traffic is hidden service related" and "there are around
> 30000 hidden services today":
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/some-statistics-about-onions <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/some-statistics-about-onions>
> 
> * Assessing, triaging, and putting out new Tor releases to fix
> hidden service security (stability) bugs recently:
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-02512-and-0267-are-released <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-02512-and-0267-are-released>
> 
> * I hear that Rob Jansen and others have been working on a more realistic
> replacement for TorPerf (https://gitweb.torproject.org/torperf.git <https://gitweb.torproject.org/torperf.git>)
> which will let us measure performance to a hidden service over time and
> better understand where the bottlenecks are.
> 
> * I've also been talking to EFF about kicking off a Tor Onion Challenge
> (to follow on from their Tor Relay Challenges), to a) get many people
> to make their website or other service accessible as an onion site,
> and b) come up with and/or build a novel use of onion services, to go
> with the quite cool list that we have already but have done a poor job
> of publicizing: Pond, Globaleaks, SecureDrop, Ricochet, OnionShare,
> facebook's https onion, etc. You see, I used to be on the "making your
> normal website reachable as an onion service is stupid" side of the fence,
> but I have since come to realize that I was wrong. You know how, ten
> years ago, website operators would say "I don't need to offer https for
> my site, because my users ____" and they'd have some plausible-sounding
> excuse? And now they sound selfish and short-sighted if they say that,
> because everybody knows it should be the choice of the *user* what
> security properties she gets when reaching a service? I now think onion
> services are exactly in that boat: today we have plenty of people saying
> "I don't need to offer a .onion for my site, because my users _____". We
> need to turn it around so sites let their *users* decide what security
> (encryption, authentication, trust) properties they want to achieve
> while interacting with each site.
> 
> Our "3-4%" stat has actually been used by some of the other people (at
> other groups) who are funded by Memex. They're talking to (among others)
> the child porn division of the Department of Justice, and I've taught them
> enough about Tor that they've basically turned into Tor advocates on our
> behalf. They've found actual numbers to be really useful at countering the
> FUD that some government people start out with. One of these people
> explained to me last week that they listen to her more than she thinks
> they'd listen to me, since she shows up as a neutral party. In any case
> I am happy to have more people working on the "teach law enforcement
> how Tor actually works" topic, which you can read more about here:
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/trip-report-tor-trainings-dutch-and-belgian-police <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/trip-report-tor-trainings-dutch-and-belgian-police>
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/trip-report-october-fbi-conference <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/trip-report-october-fbi-conference>
> 
> We do indeed need to be very careful and very thoughtful about what
> things in the Tor network are safe to measure. The general heuristic we've
> been using so far is: "Is that measurement taking advantage of something
> that you could instead fix? If so, it's not ok to measure it." A prime
> example here of what's over the line is running relays that get the
> HSDir flag and then recording what hidden service descriptors they see
> (and thus what hidden services they learn about). We would instead like
> to treat that as a vulnerability and fix it:
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8106 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8106>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8243 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8243>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8244 <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8244>
> and see also the "Attacks by Hidden Service Directory Servers" section of
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/hidden-services-need-some-love <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/hidden-services-need-some-love>
> as well as the section after it. (There are other researchers who have
> used that technique, e.g.
> http://freehaven.net/anonbib/#oakland2013-trawling <http://freehaven.net/anonbib/#oakland2013-trawling> and also Gareth Owen's
> talk at 31c3. But we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.)
> 
> On the other hand, if people publish a .onion address on a normal
> website and Google runs across it and indexes the name, then it seems
> clear that that's public information. There are many other ways to learn
> about hidden service names which are ethically in-between, e.g.
> http://blogs.verisigninc.com/blog/entry/new_from_verisign_labs_measuring1 <http://blogs.verisigninc.com/blog/entry/new_from_verisign_labs_measuring1>
> These are great topics for us as a community to keep discussing.
> 
> Similarly, if your .onion address is public, and your webserver
> doesn't require any authentication, and somebody fetches the content
> on it... that also seems like public information. And if, for example,
> the onion service is a forum, and users go there and then write their
> names down or provide other identifying information, that isn't really
> a bug or design flaw that Tor can fix.
> 
> These days there are services like Ahmia that list and index a bunch of
> onion names and content:
> https://ahmia.fi/search/ <https://ahmia.fi/search/>
> And to be clear, I think this is a great trend: we need to make onion
> services easier to understand and more accessible (and faster and more
> robust) for ordinary people, or we'll remain stuck with all the metaphors
> that include the word 'dark'.
> 
> Ok, now that I've provided some background, I should try to answer your
> question more clearly: we're using the Memex money to make hidden services
> stronger, and we're teaching other people how Tor works. In terms of
> teaching, it's the same thing I do for every other audience: explain about
> all the projects Tor works on (Tor, Tor Browser, pluggable transports,
> metrics, OONI, ...), which projects do what, how to measure and assess
> Tor's anonymity, what problems we don't have great answers for, and so on.
> 
> Part of making Tor work better means that it works better for these people
> too. And some of these people are indeed working on tools to gather and
> organize public content from hidden services, with the intent that groups
> like law enforcement will find their tools useful. We're not working
> on these tools, but when Tor becomes better (for everybody) these tools
> work better (for the groups they have in mind). It is a tricky balance,
> but I think we have the balance right in this case.
> 
> Would I rather have funding where it's easier to find a good balance?
> Absolutely. That's a major part of why we've been talking about funding
> and funding diversity so much lately, and why we've been thinking about
> crowdfunding specifically for hidden service design improvements, and
> about growing our donation base and sustainability through donations
> and other avenues. We need help from all of you to get there.
> 
> I don't want to play the "they'd do it anyway" card too strongly here --
> first because who knows, maybe they wouldn't, and second because there
> are definitely some activities that you stay away from no matter the
> balance. I've talked a lot with the program manager of Memex, and he's
> completely supportive of the "don't weaken Tor" mandate. In that sense
> we're aligned: he very strongly believes that weakening Tor would screw up
> this balance. I trust his intentions, and in any case we're the ones doing
> the technical side of Tor so we can make sure that we do the right thing.
> 
> I should also make clear my opinion on some of the bad uses of Tor.
> The folks who are using Tor for child porn, even though they are a tiny
> fraction of overall Tor users, are greatly hurting Tor -- by changing
> or reinforcing public perceptions of what privacy is for, and also
> by attracting the attention and focus of law enforcement and making
> that the way that law enforcement first learns about Tor. So, fuck
> them, they should get off our network, that's not what Tor is for and
> they're hurting all of us. Now, that doesn't mean we should weaken Tor,
> even if we don't want them on the network. That slope is too easy to
> slip down, and we must not get into the business of dictating what
> is acceptable behavior for Tor users (which would eventually lead to
> designing technical mechanisms to enforce these choices).
> 
> I just went back to re-read the Forbes article, and in retrospect it
> sure makes it look like all of these companies are working on tools that
> relate to Tor hidden services. They aren't. The main focus for Memex is
> on automatically parsing and collecting info from ads on e.g. craigslist,
> and generally getting better at the 'big data' side of searching and
> organizing this data. More generally, Memex is made up of a bunch of
> different companies, each doing their thing. I guess this is another
> casualty of the ambiguity of the phrases 'dark web' and 'deep web',
> since journalists find them hot to talk about but nobody reliably knows
> what they refer to.
> 
> If you want to follow along with the actual technical work we're doing,
> I invite you to observe or participate in the periodic "SponsorR"
> meetings that happen on IRC:
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/sponsors/SponsorR <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/sponsors/SponsorR>
> http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-dev/ <http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-dev/>
> 
> Thanks,
> --Roger




-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk