Re: [tor-talk] Tor Exit Operator convicted in Austrian lower court

[Moritz Bartl <moritz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 07/04/2014 10:56 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote:
> *>"No*, we aren't aware of anyone being sued or prosecuted in the United
> States just for running a Tor relay. Further, we believe that running a
> Tor relay --- including an exit relay that allows people to anonymously
> send and >receive traffic --- is legal under U.S. law."
> That may need a bit of revision. :D  Maybe no one has been prosecuted in
> the US (I don't know)

Not that I know of. We also can't simply edit that page, since it was
produced as is by the EFF. We can revise the pages, yes, but we need
help with that. You can't possibly expect a magic somebody to do it.
Everyone is free to submit a patch!

>, but people in other countries sure have.

"sure have"? I know of no other case that got not immediately dropped.
With the exception of William, whose, sorry I must say this, behavior
and combining circumstances didn't exactly help. We could have easily
fought this, and we would have organized and paid a lawyer, if he didn't
overall act as bad as he did. And that something like a raid, seizure
and potential _prosecution_ (not: conviction) that happen, yes, that is
something every exit operator should be aware of.

The legal FAQ is a legal FAQ. It is still completely legal in all
countries we know of. It is not the "how you should behave and what is
the worst case scenario" FAQ: That is
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines . A
legal FAQ in my eyes should mention that a lot of cases already proved
the legality of Tor exit relays. You can't expect this document to be up
to date by the minute. It also clearly states that it is something
written by the EFF for United States only: Tor cannot give legal advice,
US entities seem to have to be very careful about that.

Sorry for sounding a bit rude, but yes, to say it frankly, I am pissed
off because of this case. There was no reason for making this public
before the written statement other to scare away other Tor relay
operators. As if Tor didn't already have enough bad press, some fuckup
THAT HAS NO LEGAL CONSEQUENCES FOR OTHER TOR RELAYS WHATSOEVER and WHERE
THERE IS NOT EVEN A WRITTEN STATEMENT YET TO BASE ANY CONSTRUCTIVE
DISCUSSION ON is not helpful. Pleaaase, everyone, you don't have to jump
on everything on the Internet that some dude posted to a blog and waste
your time discussing THINGS THAT NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT YET. If you
want to be constructive, think about how we can properly design a legal
fund. WE DO HAVE MONEY FOR THIS.

No, I do NOT plan on throwing 30000 Euro to waste just because the
operator didn't want our help and handled the whole case completely
wrong. YES, I feel bad about this and we wanted to help him all this
time. I understand it is not his fault, but sadly there is nothing we
can do if the accused does not want our help.

Please, understand that we have an active interest in updating the
website, providing a legal fund, organizing lawyers and all that.
Several of you make it sound like it's the Tor project's fault, and
demand that magically "someone" writes elaborate and brilliant guides
for the website and from one day to another sets up an international
legal fund. You're all invited to investigate options and write guides,
but just ranting on a mailinglist is not getting us anywhere.

I will pick up this thread only after we have seen a written statement
by the court. Please start separate threads if you have good and
well-thought ideas about how we can organize a legal fund, send a patch
for the website if you have good writing skills, and edit the Tor Exit
Guidelines page if you think it is wrong. It is a wiki, wikis are there
to be edited.

> The concept of, "No one's been *prosecuted* in the US, therefore running
> Tor relays has no potentially serious legal ramifications," is glossing
> over the dangers.

I agree.

-- 
Moritz Bartl
https://www.torservers.net/
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