Re: gEDA-user: Re: Flame about XML

[Andy Peters <devel@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Mar 14, 2007, at 5:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On Mar 14, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Andy Peters wrote:
> > >   Seriously.  There is some grand assumption that just because  
> > > the capabilities we have now are good that the capabilities we  
> > > had twenty years ago sucked.  That is not always the case.
> >
> > I have a Sun SparcStation 10 at home.  It sits, unused.  Every  
> > once in a while, I talk about it, and I say, "You know, I used to  
> > do Real Work on that machine."
>
>   It's a shame...it'd make a good mail server or firewall for a  
> home network.  Damn things are bulletproof.
>
>   Sure, one could use a recent PC for such a task...but it'd be  
> larger, louder, run hotter, burn more power, be less reliable, need  
> a keyboard and monitor to boot, sit idle most of the time, and be  
> expensive to replace if it fails.  Not so with an SS10.

Funny, I'm doing all of that stuff on the Mac mini, and none of the  
caveats apply.  (The mini runs a Subversion server via Apache, DNS  
for the home network, and it's the firewall, too. And it's also  
working as an EyeTV-based PVR!  And it has a lot more memory than the  
SS10.)

When I fire up the SS10, the SCSI drive whines and it's annoyingly  
loud.  And it's a lot bigger than the mini.  Sure, the SS10 was free,  
but the Mac mini makes more sense for my purposes.

> > I used to do Real Work on Apollo workstations (before HP bought  
> > 'em and dissolved 'em), running Mentor Graphics (which shipped on  
> > cartridge tapes).  It was a Big Deal upgrading from the 68030  
> > processor to the 68040, and the upgrade was Not Cheap.
> >
> > The company I used to work for (the one with the unused Data I/O  
> > 2900) got its start doing PCB CAD machines based on 68000  
> > processors and custom graphics boards, all on VME backplanes.   
> > (The guys who founded the company told me that they ate their own  
> > dog food, in a very real way.)  I got the chance to fire one up,  
> > and it worked, but the PC on my desk running PCAD ate it for  
> > breakfast.
> >
> > So, yeah, we used to do Real Work with these old hunks-o-junk  
> > ("... and we were happy to have the tools!"), but the sad fact is  
> > that the $500 Mac mini sitting next to my TV set runs circles  
> > around all of them, and part of being a Smart Engineer is choosing  
> > the right tool for the job.  Sticking with archaic hardware  
> > because of some romantic notion about computing purity strikes me  
> > as fucking stupid, pardon my New Jersey.
>
>   Huh?  Data I/O UniFamily, which is a currently supported product  
> line that can program current devices, is somehow "archaic hardware"?
>
>   I choose the best tools for the job, regardless of cost, brand  
> name, or age.  This hasn't a damn thing to do with "purity"...this  
> has to do with getting work done, and getting it done right the  
> first time.

I'm referring to Michael's Luddite comments when I talk about "purity."

>   Not that you care (or even should), but your credibility on the  
> topic of device programming is just about nonexistent with me.  And  
> that's coming from someone who actually *uses* the stuff rather  
> than bitching about having looked at it sitting on a shelf, or  
> having worked for a company that's naive enough to pay someone  
> (even the manufacturer) any more than twenty bucks to replace a bog- 
> standard floppy drive.  "Smart engineer" indeed.  The clue phone is  
> ringing, and it's for you.

Back then -- and this was 1992 or so -- replacing the floppy disk  
drive on the Data I/O 2900 was, for whatever reason, not trivial.   
Yes, we tried using an off-the-shelf drive, and it didn't work, and  
quite frankly, it pissed us off that we HAD to call Data I/O to have  
them fix the thing.  So maybe Data I/O had some firmware that  
required you to use their special floppy disk drives.  I don't know.

That's when we started looking for alternatives that were cheaper  
than the Data I/O.

Nor do I know if they've had upgrades since that made it possible to  
use a $10 floppy drive.

>   I have provided verifiable information from first-hand, real- 
> world professional experiences.  Either provide real reasons why my  
> recommendation was a poor one, or prove that what we're talking  
> about is "archaic" despite being a current top-of-the-line product,  
> or drop it.
>
>   In other words...Put up, or shut up.

Hey, I've already pointed out my reasons: we'd migrated to ISP  
devices, and the little JTAG dongles that we got for free from the  
device vendors made a lot more sense for us than the Data I/O.

And you've said that you bought your Data I/Os used, and if they suit  
your needs, great.  I can't imagine that you'd pay the full nut for  
one.  You've already pointed out that current software is $Expensive.

-a


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