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Re: Just a note,

> Just wanted to bring this up as a discussion, something I've thought =
> about a little bit.
> Independence prides itself in being different in that its for the End =
> Users.  However, although I've seen good efforts such as in security, we =

Indy wants to be for end user's but only by accident.  Main goal is to
help, either directly or ideologically, the spreading of Linux.  But
Unix users are about 5% of the users of computers, so spreading Linux
means taking care of those 95% of users who are not Unix users.  THta
means we have to go outside Unix territorry.  That means end users,
but also small companies, liberal professions (that is the name we
give in France to peole like lawyers, doctors, writers), desktop users
and so on.  One of the things you have to keep in mind when thinking
in those people is that a sizable share of them have to learn at the
school of hard knocks and that for most of them computers are not
their work so the time they spend studying is time they have to
steal from their real work.  All this means you have to think in them
like if they were Mac users and provide them simple tools.

> can't just be a distrubtion that makes and adds some apps to the regular =
> distrubtion.  Other wise we would just as well call our selves a free =
> software group (nothing wrong with that).  I think sometimes we have to =
> concentrate less an apps, there are people out there willin to do that, =
> and look more at the overall way of linux is set up.  It still feels =
> like a server O/S which has to change.  Though i believe one of linux's =

Right and cleaning Indy of some apps I think second rate or useless is
one of my goals but I was not able to carry the task.

> strength is that its way more finely tuned to a network than a Win9x =
> machine and that networks are what is coming to almost all homes there =
> are things that have to change.  Such as why do we have sendmail/postfix =
> installed on a workstation installation? What is wrong with using an =
> internet smtp to do that?

I will distinguish two problems: in a w<orksttation in a LAN you are
probably better using a client connectiog to the smtp or Pop server
from your organization.  However a mail server on each worksation
still allows sxome useful tricks like sending messages to the network
administrator when something is wrong.

A home user could just point a reader towards his provider however
fetchmail requires a mail server on the box, the solution web server +
fetchamil has the following benefits respective to a mail cleint
connecting to the provider:
-Mail retrieval and sending can be made automatic thus making the
 conection shorter and allowing the user to concentrate on other tasks
 like surfing.
-If there are more than one computer in the house the mail for all
 people can be retrieved and deleivered to each family member.  This
 allows lower phone bills and when you will want to read your mail it
 will be waiting for you instead of having to go through the chore of
 retrieving from the ISP

> Other services that would be more for server installed on a desktop is =
> just not purposeful and waste the users memory?

One of the features in Indy is that I edited the software lsit in
order to reduce the servers installed in workstations.  I also added
the 'Private computer' install who has still less servers (and more
games :-).  It is prbable there is still some cruft to be removed.

> Also I still feel strongly that we put too much on a CD. Corel Linux, =
> the distrubtion I think is leading the home desktop distrubtions is fit =
> with a slim 250 megs of data.  Only KDE, and it limits it self with =
> apps. Now look at the other extreme, Mandrake over 1000 megs of data, =
> over 7 window managers, 3 RPM managers and more.  People will be =

Well IMHO Corel has an agenda: sell Word Perfect and Corel Draw so it
feels logical they are not overly eager to put Abiword or the Gimp in
the distrib.  :-) I am not convinced by Corel: papers are talking
about it like if it ware the ninth marvel of the world but everything
I have read about it was already in Caldera 2.2.

One of the things I don't want in Indy is becoming a monster
distribution: there is a limit on how much the human mind can cope so
there is no use in having 7 window managers.  It is true I want to
cover needs so I add apps that RedHat does not include but ideally for
every need I would like to include only one app for each task: the
best one.  Sometimes I have to water down that ideal: when there is no
clear winner, when the best one requires a monster machine or when an
app I would like to ditch has a sizable user base so it would harm too
many people if we removed it.  But I don't add software just for the
sake of having a marketing argument.

> overwhelmed by so many different apps they will play with all of them =
> and never really focus them selves to learn each program.  This creates =
> the idea that linux is a toy and they reboot back into windows. Don't =

What I add is for avoiding people telling 'oh I have to manage my
check book so I reboot windows' and then considering Linux as a toy.
Ie I want to cover some needs presently not covered by other distribs
and avoid redundancies.

> get me wrong, I am all for free choice, but simplicity comes into play =
> also.  We can suggest how to get the other desktop if they are unhappy =
> with the one they presently use or something.
> After that, now a hypocritcal question, can we put GnuCash on the =
> distro.  One of the biggest leaps for people is that they can't use =
> quicken anymore. This is a subsitute that would be able to read quicken =
> files.  Maybe replace the other checkbook program with this?

One of the first things I included in Indy was CBB who has the same
ecological niche and can read Quicken files.  Gnucash is nicer but it
uses double entry accounting (ie what is used professionally) instead
of the more intuitive single entry accounting.  However if people
support you in this issue I agree we move to Gnucash.  Remeber that
until I get Indy installation working I am not going to spend time on
apps and that then we will probably under pressure to release so
Gnucash or any other app will have far better chances if you can point
me to a _good_ RPM somewhere (rpmfind.net is first place to search).

			Jean Francois Martinez

Project Independence: Linux for the Masses