Re: Light Princess, was Re: [kidsgames] Generic adventure game engine

[Kidsgames Project Coordinator - Jeff Waddell <jeff@smluc.org>]

Hi Terry,

Count me in :)

Would you like to register lightprincess.sourceforge.net and put the code
there, having the kidsgames site point to it or would you prefer to have
me put this into the main kidsgames.sourceforge.net site as a subproject?
(Did that question make sense?)

Some comments follow.


On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Terry Hancock wrote:

-->Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:41:34 -0700
-->From: Terry Hancock <hancock@earthlink.net>
-->Reply-To: kidsgames@smluc.org
-->To: kidsgames@smluc.org
-->Subject: Light Princess, was Re: [kidsgames] Generic adventure game engine
-->
-->There appear to be brushfires springing up at the edges 
-->of this thread, as everyone starts bringing up their
-->pet peeves.  So I'd like to return to what I thought
-->was the original issue:
-->

Thanks for bringing us back on top, saves me the trouble :)

-->"jm" asked whether a generic engine exists to write
-->graphic adventure games along the lines of the 
-->Sierra or LucaArts games.  [ I think he's talking
-->about the "middle" Sierra games, like King's Quest
-->V or so -- i.e. after the text line went away, but
-->before everything resolved into one mouse cursor].
-->

There are several engines out there, which I have not had a chance to
explore thoroughly.  Of course there is also the ability to run these
already written games in the various emulator's, which is a bit painful
(at least to get setup to do).

-->This implies to me, that "jm" is interested in
-->contributing creative content, in contrast to 
-->"Steve Baker"'s claim that such creative interest
-->does not exist.
-->  I think we might be able to
-->contribute in that area too, though we're going to
-->need some help, and guidance towards interacting
-->with the technical side of the problem.
-->

This is what the kidsgames project is HERE for.  What do you need?  Ah I
see you tell us... good!!!

-->Lots of other people have been involved in the
-->conversation, and some potential sources for
-->engines have been proposed, as well as reasons
-->why it won't work. :)
-->

Of course it will work... eventually... We will MAKE it work :)

-->This suggests to me a classic "chicken-and-egg"
-->problem -- the creative talent doesn't want to
-->start without an engine, and the technical talent
-->doesn't want to start without a story.
-->

YEP.  So, crack that egg and fry the hen, it's time to make some GAMES :)

-->Obviously, it would be good to break this deadlock.
-->

YEP.

-->Now I am a programmer _and_ an artist, so I tend to
-->see both sides of this problem.  As a programmer,
-->I am extremely frustrated at systems that force
-->linear thinking onto what I perceive as basically
-->visual problems.

MOST programmer's 1) are TAUGHT (and usually extremely good at) linear
thinking 2) are NOT VISUALLY oriented.

This is what causes the tools to be linear and non-visual.  If we (as
programmer's start thinking outside the box, and are given the problem in
a way that we can solve it, we general [given sufficient personal
motivation] will.  Having a creation tool that almost ANYONE could use
would make our desired goal much easier to reach.

--> As an artist, I am somewhat 
-->frustrated by the dilemma of which bit of programming
-->I'm going to have to learn, as well as where to
-->find the right tools.

I noticed that you are "extremely frustated" on the programming side and
only "sowewhat frustated" on the Artistic side.  So it would seem that you
find the programming parts to be the hold out, whereas programmer's such
as Steve find it the other way around.

By the way, I consider programming to be artistic but that's another
argument :)

--> As a person who would like 
-->to make money someday at my day job, not to mention
-->a fairly busy parent, I would like to not spend a 
-->horrendous amount of time on something like this.
-->

EXACTLY.  I put what time I can, yet it never seems to be enough.
However, if we ALL put in just whatever we CAN, then it will be MORE than
enough.  Think MASSIVELY Parallel here ;)

-->On the other hand, we would like to contribute:
-->

ALRIGHT!!!!

-->My wife, who has a greater personal interest in seeing
-->adventure games come to Linux, along with a fair
-->amount of writing talent, has proposed to me a simple,
-->fairly low-impact idea -- adapting a "children's classic"
-->(public domain) to a classic puzzle/game format.

Great there are many and once this on is done "datasets" can be plugged in
at little extra effort.

-->  After
-->a half-hour or so of brainstorming, she settled on
-->"The Light Princess," by George MacDonald.

Great where can we find the text?  Is it online yet?

-->  This original
-->story is public domain, so even though this is clearly a
-->derivative work, there's no copyright entanglements.
-->
Awesome

-->I am quite capable of handling game backgrounds for such
-->a story, and I have some ideas that might make such work
-->go along a little faster.  I could probably do character
-->work in a pinch, but I'd rather recruit someone else to
-->do it.  I do have some ideas -- I know one frustrated
-->animator, and she knows artists and media people.  We
-->might even be able to get voice talent, once it gets to
-->a fairly well-developed stage (but that's a little trickier).
-->
I don't know how talented my voice is, but I'm willing to read text in
various voices at the very least.

-->My wife has already got a basic concept for adapting
-->"The Light Princess," including multiple endings, with
-->a fairly unique "you pick which is the winning ending"
-->twist.  She's willing to handle game "room"
-->layout, and descriptive text and dialog (largely drawn 
-->from the original), along with the resulting game play
-->trees.  The result would need something like the LucasArts
-->"Monkey Island" game engine, in which characters talk to 
-->other characters by a multiple-choice menu.   There should 
-->also be "automaton" characters with the ability to respond
-->in a rule-based way to the player, and other characters.
-->

Sounds familiar somehow ;)

-->So, to sum up, here's our bid:
-->
-->1) Storyline, game tree, dialog -- i.e. all the "creative"
-->   writing, adapted from a classic story in the public domain.
-->   One nice thing, this story isn't so well known (unlike
-->   "Alice in Wonderland"), so many people won't know the
-->   ending already.  Of course, it will have multiple endings,
-->   but I think you know what I mean.  It also has some nice
-->   characters that are fairly well fleshed out.
-->
-->2) Backgrounds and character art and animation "cels" or
-->   "sprites" -- that is, the conception and production of
-->   them.  
-->
-->And, here's the requirements:
-->
-->1) A graphic adventure game engine, similar to the Sierra
-->   or LucasArts engines, in that:
-->
-->   * it is mouse-based
-->   * it allows multiple "tools" or "actions" to be selected
-->   * dialog is in a "multiple choice" mode -- either/both
-->     pick-verb + pick-subject [+ pick-object]  or
-->     pick-whole-sentence
-->   * automatons with timesense (technically, Augmented
-->     Finite State Machines, AFSMs) with fairly easy
-->     scripting to drive non-player characters as well
-->     as time-sensitive environments, "event wait"
-->     time should be available too
-->
-->   - doesn't really need scrolling graphics
-->   - there probably aren't any "arcade sequences," though
-->     we might be able to find room for them, if someone
-->     really wants to create them
-->

I Believe what you may be looking for is WORLDFORGE.  www.worldforge.org.
Make all the online WORLDS you desire, including LightPrincess world.
I've got an old copy of the this project from CVS, and have not made time
to really explore it very throughly, it's 26M of stuff so well you see.
Anyway it's has clients for several platforms and it uses the tcp/ip for 
the client/server communications so it's already networkable.  Let me know
if it is at least close enough to be adaptable to what you desire.

-->2) An interactive tool for making the animated sprites 
-->   needed, that is easy enough for an animator (i.e. not
-->   a programmer) to use.  Of course, I can provide tech
-->   support, since I am a programmer, if that makes it an
-->   easier target.
-->

GIMP?  or a plugin thereof?  What tools do professional animators use?
Can we get ports or make a clone?

-->3) We need some education!  Neither of us are experienced
-->   game designers.

Neither am I.

-->  Rosalyn will need a format to use to
-->   write both the game structure and the dialog options,
-->   etc.  I (Terry) will need a guide to what tools I ought
-->   to be using to get the graphics and animation -- 
-->   particularly sprites -- done. 
-->

Many are suggesting XML, however I have no real knowledge of XML.  I
suggest getting the story and dialogs for the story into textfiles so that
we can manipulate that data.

-->
-->#1 could be acheived by using a "generic adventure game engine"
-->if one exists, or by collaborating with you talented game
-->programmers to create one special (perhaps somewhere in-between --
-->i.e. we create it for this game and keep it flexible enough for
-->later re-use).  I have heard a variety of different game and
-->graphics libraries bandied about on this list, but I have to
-->admit I don't know what most of them are.  We are not qualified
-->to take the lead on this!
-->

GAGE? hmmmm, would this be a combination engine that would run all the old
stuff or be an entirely new thing with it's own dataset file format?

-->I'm pretty sure I heard someone say that #2 exists, but I don't
-->know where to find it.  I might be able to attempt a port or
-->something, if there was a good codebase to start from.  However,
-->I would probably need a lot of help, and it might take me
-->forever, if I can't dedicate enough time to it.
-->

Luckily in Free Software we HAVE forever to take if we NEED to.  It
appears that it seldom actually takes that long (unless you count all the
orphaned projects, of course who knows when somebody might just resurrect
one of them...)

-->#3 Really involves too things: helping us make the decision about
-->what to study, and helping find the materials to learn about it.
-->Answering specific questions after we got started would be good,
-->too, of course.
-->

In order to help in these decisions we need to see clearly what you are
deciding between.  You have made a good start and described your needs
well.  If we don't give you answers immediately, it may be because 1) we
DON'T know yet. 2) we are formulating such answers and it just takes time
3) we don't currently have the time to answer but will when we can 4) we
know but we just don't like you ( just kidding )

Be patient with us, if we miss something and you feel it needs to be
rehashed feel free to bring it up again.

I hope to use your experience to create a How to write an Educational
Kids Game for Linux document.

-->If it works, we have some more ambitious ideas ("The Light
-->Princess" will be a fairly small game, in terms of the number
-->of puzzles, characters, and rooms), but let's stick to square
-->one.

How about circle one :)

-->
-->So, will there be any takers?
-->
-->

Yep.  I'll help.

Is it time to resurrect the discussion about KidsGameBuilder v0.0.1 ?

-- 
Jeff Waddell
jeff@smluc.org

Kids Games Project Coordinator
main website at http://smluc.org/SIA/kidsgames/

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