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Re: [kidsgames] a Mom's eye view




On 22-Mar-2000 RRPotratz wrote:

>> > Why do my kids play windows games?  We hate windows and
>> > strongly dislike most of the games.  However, my 3 year old
>> > can click on something and start a game.  My 6 year old can
>> > put in her own cd and run a game even if it is not installed
>> > on the machine.
>> > 
>> > The linux games are much much harder. 

gmc or kfm let you click on something and start a game. Running software off of
a mounted cd is trivial... 

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> Not so.  I have downloaded many kid-type programs for 'doze that were
> freeware
> and some had source files too as a second zipfile.  But the games themselves
> were either a zipfile that I either unzipped into a directory and ran, or had
> a
> full blown installer.  It can't be any worse to distribute a game as a RPM or
> DEB?
> 

the windows games have a distinct advantage: there has been no commonly
distributed game library before directsuck, so all those games are statically
linked, which means they don't benefit from library upgrades and are larger.
Windows is starting to get this 'linux problem' with dx, if you have version 5,
you can't run a game that depends on version 6, etc etc etc. Right now, you buy
a commercial game and it comes with the dx installer... If you download a
freeware game that uses dx, it does not come with the installer, and if you do
not have the right version, you cannot use it.

The problem with rpm's and debs and binary packages are there're so damn many
of 'em and they're a pain in the butt. I don't release my software in any of
those formats because I simply don't have the time to learn the formats. I
depend on people who know the formats to volunteer my time to produce the
debs and various breeds of rpm's.

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>> > My husband (Jeff
>> > Waddell) spends hours trying to download and set-up these
>> > games for us.  It is a royal pain.  Many times we don't have

jeff spends many hours a day trying to tie his velcro shoes ;)

>> > the right library or we need to upgrade.  Some have even
>> > crashed our system.  We only have a slow old copper phone
>> > line and all of this takes forever.

most of us use old copper. I usually connect at 16800 because of crappy phone
lines, sometimes I get REALLY lucky and connect at 26400.

>> 
>> Commercial games would have this problem too if they didn't
>> have 600Mbytes of CD-ROM onto which to place copies of all
>> the libraries that the program needs.  You could do this
>> with OpenSource games too - but then your poor old modem
>> would be struggling for the next week downloading all those
>> libraries that you probably already have anyway.
>> 
>> Getting OpenSource games onto CD-ROM inherently means they
>> won't be free anymore....that happens though.  If you buy
>> a copy of SuSE Linux 6.3, then you can install my Tux_AQFH
>> game with a single mouse-click (well, maybe a couple) - the
>> very same game that you can download for free yet have to
>> figure out how to install with the right libraries and such.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. At least locally, I give out a CD with freeware educational
> games at my computer clinics we hold for the local home school group.  This
> takes alot of time to find, download and organize such a thing, but I feel it
> is worth it to show poeple there are alternatives.
> 

that could be done as a VAR situation. I'd pay for a $10 or $20 cd of 100 linux
games. The issue would be where to install the games to, and how to handle
libraries (static linking of every game would be incredibly stupid and windows
like).

>> >  Clare and I would love to have people who are interested in
>> > working on our Rolpher the Gopher Grocery game.  It is just an idea
>> > now.  If you might be able to help, let me know and I will
>> > send you more details.

the kids games section on sourceforge should probably have a map of projects.
Then 'rolpher the gopher' could have a page and be linked from the kids games
page, so potential developers can peruse at their will. Only dispensing your
idea to people who ask you about them is probably not an effective way to
recruit. 

>> 
>> The problem for me (as a programmer) is not in getting the basic
>> ideas.  Writing the code is a huge investment in time and effort,
>> producing artwork, audio, etc, etc is still more.  Contributing
>> suggestions for games doesn't really help me all *that* much.
>> 
>> I think I could come up with a reasonable idea for a kids game
>> in a few evenings of thinking - but it could easily take a whole
>> year of three or four people's hard work to turn that into a
>> finished game.
>>
> 
> Ahhh, now this is the real problem.  It takes lots of time and teamwork to
> make
> a full blown commercial game whether win' or lin',  so how do you get a bunch
> of independent (you wouldn't be in linux if you weren't), progammers and such
> to work on a project over the long haul with out promise of payout in the end
> (assuming GPL'd) and with a purpose to work together in a certain direction? 
> Linux's flexibility seems to work against it here.
> 

I've worked with people and have had no problem working as a group, even tho we
were all highly egotistical and had very definite (and different) ideas. The
usual way it works is there are very very few core developers (1, 2, sometimes
even 3). The core developers stick with the project for fairly long times. Then
there are a series of short term developers, they usually stick around long
enough to offer one patch, sometimes two. As far as progamming, this works well
even for games. Level designers, vox ppl, artists, etc are not present in most
open source game development groups. The closest I've seen was "I can scan some
pictures from my ski trip".

Linux's flexibility is not the problem, and I think we're fine in the coding
dept. We lack in the other depts. If you look at game companies, there are more
graphic artists than programmers, and usually at least as many sound people as
programmers. I'm not saying that game programmers are exceptional people who do
their work much more effeciently, I'm saying that the art of creating games
relies very heavily on the efforts of graphic and sound artists. And we don't
have them.

> 
>> The idea that you could come to this list with an idea for a
>> game and somehow talk a group of people into writing it for
>> you is somewhat naive.  It would have to be a truly, awesomely
>> amazing idea to catch people's attention I think.  Other people's
>> views may differ - but that's how I see it.
> 
> 
>> You should also be aware that the attrition rate amongst new
>> OpenSource games projects is high.  After an initial rush of
>> enthusiasm and perhaps a very simple first pass at an implementation,
>> probably 80 or 90% of projects fold from lack of interest,
>> internal conflicts or something like that.
>>

those numbers are probably highly optimistic.

> 
> See above.  I am not a programmer, but I applaude all those who contribute to
> linux and the games that are out there.  I am an end user who sometimes
> wonder
> why I spend so much time getting things to work in Linux.  It is a challenge,
> a
> different feeling than 'doze and I do love the O/S.
> 

programmers are not the hottest commodity in linux software development,
*ESPECIALLY* games. 

Good project leaders are important, people who can arbitrate and keep
everything on track, programming skill would be a plus, but not necessary.

Graphic and audio artists are rare and extremely important. There are lots of
games that are good ideas and good code, but the graphics and sound make the
game a peice of crap.

Documentation is also incredibly important. One of the joys of independant
development is that we're not required to write good documentation. But in the
end, that documentation is very important. Things like user manuals, readmes,
API documentation, webpages, etc. all have to be written.

Idea people are important. Not just "I have a good idea for a game", but level
designers, puzzle designers, people to design the details. The biggest problem
I've seen with idea people is they think they have the worlds greatest idea,
and they think a couple cryptic sentances will make everyone see they're
geniouses. They may be geniouses, but without detailed write-ups and diagrams
and a lot of highly effective communication, their ideas simply won't be
addressed or realized.

>> >  Not only that, but we
>> > only have one phone line so our friends are getting busy
>> > signals all the time.

get a second line? :)

(clip)

        -Erik <erik@smluc.org> [http://math.smsu.edu/~br0ke]

The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily opinions. In all
probability, they are random rambling, and to be ignored. Failure to ignore
may result in severe boredom or confusion. Shake well before opening. Keep
Refrigerated.
        
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