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Re: [tor-talk] Legal problems: TOR relay & Torrents in .de

On 16/02/13 15:04, Joe Btfsplk wrote:

On 2/16/2013 6:44 AM, Nick Sheppard wrote:
On 04/02/13 12:33, Hendrik Neumann wrote:

I've been running an exit node from my home network for ca. a year or
so. Now I've receviced mail from 21st Century Fox's lawyers in Germany
accusing me of torrenting a movie. Since all I offer via Torrent are
some old PC-BSD-ISOs and "House on Haunted Hill", I'm pretty sure it
must have been a user from the TOR network.

Hi Hendrik,
Second, this immediate demand for money.  In my experience, real
lawyers work much more slowly than this (after all, they can charge
for every letter they write).  First one or two demands that you stop
what you're doing, then a threat of eventual legal action, and so on.
If they want to build a case against you that will stand up in court,
they would usually have to show that you were given fair warning, and
then wilfully and knowingly persisted in your evil-doing for a
substantial time.
Nick, you could be right about a scam - at least warrants some
consideration.  But in many countries, if one breaks an actual LAW,
there's no *requirement* for anyone to give the accused any "warning" or
Cease & Desist Letter, before filing civil or criminal charges.  In
civil law issues, they MIGHT give a warning (like to take down
copyrighted material from a website), but they certainly wouldn't be
required to, if they can prove you broke laws & if the damages allowed
by local law / courts for a given offense, make it worthwhile to file a
law suit.  If it's legit, they either have enough evidence or they don't.

Hi Joe,

Of course you're right, and I could easily be making the wrong assumptions about the regulatory regime where Hendrik is.

Repeat disclaimer:  I'm not a lawyer.  Don't rely on me in court!

At this distance from the facts, all I can really do is point out possibilities, suggest lines of enquiry, and offer encouragement.

There has been one interesting development. The Google search for 'ipoque GmbH 21st Century Fox' (time set to 'past year') that gave no results yesterday now gives four hits. One is my own post. The others are in German and do seem relevant:


seems to be describing Hendrik's situation exactly - so it MAY be genuine; and the other (duplicated) hit is:


which (I think) offers advice about the same situation. I'm relying on very rusty school German and Google Translate, which is not a lot of help! I certainly can't judge whether those sites are genuine.

I have no idea why these two didn't show up in my search yesterday - I was searching in all languages. Maybe Google's search engines were prompted by that to cast their net a little wider?

Any use, Hendrik?

Nick Sheppard

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