Re: SEUL: Free Enough?

[David Freeman <freeman@earthling.net>]

jfm2@club-internet.fr wrote:
> 
> >
> > I know I am just kicking a dead horse horse here, but there are some
> > things I would just like to point out.
> >
> > 1) SEUL is not the FSF or Debian.  Although we may be using Debian as
> > the base distro, it is not necessary to maintain the 100% free standards
> > that Debian has.
> 
> If you are speaking about KDE and Qt the problem is not freedom but
> the dangers for Linux of having most of its X programs (KDE has the
> potential of becoming a federator) depnding on a non-free library.
> Better not promote KDE.  That does not mean than I am against
> including small Qt-based programs and Qt itself.  But KDE the answer
> is no.

Read the Qt license.  They only charge for the development libs if one
is constructing commercial applications.  Using the Qt libs within a
business setting incurs no costs.  As to the future dominance of Troll
Tech, and their ability to change the license suddenly, that is a
non-existent threat.  Who said Linux users don't engage in FUD?  :)

Also, what about statically linked Motif apps?  Although they are
developed using Motif, the user has nothing to do whatsoever with the
use of the Motif libs to develop the program.
> 
> >
> > 2) Some very nice software is not free, sometimes this software is the
> > best of it's breed, as well.  Our final goal is to creat a _Simple End
> > User_ Linux distro, not a _Most Free_ Linux distro.  There really is
> > quite a difference.
> >
> 
> I have nothing about including non-free software if its licence is
> acceptable.  Eg we need graphics to impress users.  A modeller would
> be fine.  Amapi is shareware for Linux but you can use it during a
> whole year so I think it is acceptable to use it if we don't find a
> free modeller good enough.

Amapi sounds even more restrictive than the Qt license.
> 
> > 3) Does a new user really care?  More likely than not they won't give a
> > damn about source code.  We will, of course, educate them about free
> > software, and if they want to hack around in source code, the time has
> > come to get Debian or Red Hat.
> 
> Distributing source code is a legal obligation on GPL software.  Ie if
> you don't offer you are incurring in piracy and the author could
> have you prosecuted.

That is true.  But if we use KDE, the user probably will not care
whether or not the source for Qt is included, or if the source for Motif
is included, or if the XFree86 source is included, etc.  Obnviously,
source for GPL apps must be on distro CD, and available from the
Internet.  I am just saying the average SEU really doesn't care a lot
about the availability of source code.  Knowing that it is available
should give them a warm, fuzzy feeling, but it doesn't help them get
their work done.
> 
> >
> > 4) We end up duplicating some other efforts out there.  For example, are
> > we going to write our own desktop environment?
> >
> > An application need not be 100% free to be 'free enough' for SEUL.

So far, it has been, and will be, if not 100% free, 99% free.  That is,
absolutely no programs that use any proprietary software in any form
will be distributed with the core SEUL distribution.

> >
> 
> Agreed.
>

When I became a new Linux user, I found Nedit the best X-editor around. 
Enough like Windows programs to be easy to use, but plenty of options
and features to make it powerful enough for most things I needed to do. 
I have, since then, switched to pico and emacs(x), but I still find
Nedit a great compromise between ease-of-use and power.

I am also running KDE durrently, along with FVWM2 and AfterStep. 
Although KDE resembles Win95 in some aspects, this is good in some ways,
and I find myself more productive in KDE than in FVWM2 (less screwing
around with .rc files :-).  KDE would give new users a comfortable
feel.  The only thing stopping KDE, however, are the Qt libs, which as
far as the end user is concerned, do not make a difference.  THAT is who
we should be concerned about, the end-user, not the FSF religion.


However, despite my misgivings on this subject, I will continue to
support SEUL as much as I can (that ain't very much, unfortunately   :( 
and will now proceed to close my mouth on all things GNU.


-- 
"Win32 sucks so hard it could pull matter out of a Black Hole." 
        -- Pohl Longsine