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SEUL: Re: UI leader - Another Resignation!

I am replying to cyberdyn, but the venom i am spouting is with him, not at

On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Cyberdyn wrote:
<discussion of bruce perens "underhandedness">
whatever money you think bruce ended up with is a pittance to him. bruce
has done an awful lot of good to both debian and linux in general, and
frankly, leadership like his is not something you put a price on. as for
compromising the free software ideals - do you realise how much free
software began it's life only because there were people willing to pay for
it. if bruce is producing free software, then anything anyone sees fit to
pay him is fine with me.
I don't like the way he put his points across about the worth of seul,
someone in his position can afford to be a little less heavy-handed in his
criticism and still wield a lot of influence.
But damnit, I agree with him. All talk, no work, and those that have been
doing anything are all sick and tired of those that would rather lead from
Before you accuse me of having done nothing let me tell you i have - just
don't expect any announcement on this worthless list.

> - -> I am not telling you to take any debate about how it affected SEUL offline.
> That was the point.  It does effect SEUL.  If you had taken the time to check
> into it when I first elluded to this 3 months ago he wouldn't have been in a
> position to steal developers in the first place.  But Bruce wouldn't do that,
> right?
Speaking as someone who had already decided that debian was a far better
place to aim anything than seul, i think bruce is right in his views and
motives, but his methods enrage me.

<speaking volumes about seul leadership - hear, hear>

> Although under-handed, I don't blame a single programmer for leaving.  I would
> be suprised if they don't all leave.  This is a dead project and they have
> been invited to join Debian and do the same work on a thriving distro.  They
> may not like Debian, or Bruce, or whatever, but they know they can get
> results. The end justifies the means.
Damn straight. Debian have managed to come up with the best quality linux
distribution (albeit lacking some finishes) with little or no
commercial/financial assistance - probably _because_ of the lack of
financial concerns. The fact that they have the best core
functionality is undoubtably why debian was chosen as the base for SEUL.
It wasn't meant to matter to seul what the existing interfaces and
otherprettythings looked like on the base distro, cos once apon a time
there was a dream that we might write some ourselves.

> You say I'm hurting your distro?  I think your distro was sick and dying long
> before I joined.  I have had several private posts from other members and
> leaders who have agreed with me, but remained silent for whatever reasons, one
> of whom just resigned.  
Well here is a public post agreeing with you.
This is not a distro, this is a cocktail party with everyone seeking to
impress with so many words - somehow oblivious to the pointless pretention
of it.
I wanted seul to work, i really did. If it eventually comes to mean
something or do something, I am going to be the first to come back and put
in the hard work that is needed - as soon as a guy can be convinced that
that hard work is going to count towards some useful end.

> If I was/am so wrong about Bruce, why was I the one that didn't bat an eye
> when he stole developers?  
There is a big difference between stealing and offering a window of
opportunity. Would you quit your job to work in the same capacity 
elsewhere for twice the pay? If you wouldn't, then ask yourself why SEUL
has completely failed to inspire any loyalty amongst members. To my mind,
bruce is offering a second option, and one that will get results. Are you
going to blame him for that? It is every programmer's choice where they
wish to direct their labours, and if bruce saw a whole lot of willing but
badly-led minds, then full points to him for offering them another choice.
Don't lay into bruce for "stealing" people - look to yourself and figure 
out how to make people stay. He didn't have grace, but he had purpose and

> I resign this chicken-shit outfit.  Purge me immediately from the mailing list
> etc.  I don't want to receive any more of these damned unsub authorization
> requests.
Me too - but where are your efforts going to be directed, cyberdyn? your
talents are too good to waste - if you would consider leading a leaner,
meaner team of the dedicated amongst us, i think you will find i am
just the first of many to put my name on the ticket and my nose to the

> Good luck, Orn.  You're the only one left that really knows what he's doing,
> save those that have just been lurking etc.  you know who you are.
Hear,hear. Orn - do me the kindness to read the above paragraph
substituting your own name for cyberdyn's.

well, thanks SEUL, for showing me the ugly side of bazaar-based
development. I think i have a more balanced view of things because of it,
so I have not lost anything.

-Greg(Not as happy or doubtless about leaving as i sound)