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submarines (was: Re: Stealth)

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Dave Fancella wrote:

That is kind of their purpose, after all.  :)  Also, keep in mind that
submarines are used in the real world (and have been) now for three basic
missions:


1.  To attack an enemy's supply lines
2.  To attack commercial shipping
3.  To tote nuclear missiles around (I don't know how many of these are still
around, afaik there are no treaties that cover them)

The START treaties had limitations on SLBMs, among other limitations on strategic nuclear forces. Of course now the Soviet/Russian navy is pretty much rusting in Severomorsk, or so I gather. So to answer your question, there's about little more than half the number of SSBNs still in operation around the world.

The only one of these missions that is generally applicable here is the third,
toting around some large missile.

Otherwise, while submarines battle with one another, they're not typically
part of a battle group (even if they are classed in a battle group).  They
usually work solo missions.  Maybe I'm outdated in this information, but very
much submarines are not generally used in pitched battles.

Only CF doesn't have strategic weapons. I would think submarines would end up being more used to attack transports and/or harrassment attacks against other naval forces.

1.  With this "detect subs in adjacent hexes", all you need to do is place
your ships every two hexes to create an impenentrable submarine net.
Granted there aren't many maps (if any) that use subs now, but given the
size of the maps we've seen so far, 3 or 4 ships would be sufficient to
cover most of the map.  Basically, this is a question of balance.  I'd
prefer to see this rule not implemented at first, and if subs are too
powerful, then have this rule added later.


I would be interested in a detect subs in adjacent hexes only if the sub is in
that hex at the end of a turn.  So you can have your net, but a sub could
move up close, wait a turn, then quickly penetrate the net, and wait another
turn before resuming normal movement.  I don't know how fast they go right
now, so that may not be practical.

Intersting. Sort of like having the ships propellers mask the sound of the submarine.

2.  How would this "detect subs in adjacent hexes" work for a moving ship?
They why you have it the rule described, it seems like you're primarily
thinking about the end of movement.  What happens if you have a torpedo
boat that moves across the board and somewhere in inits movement it passes
by a submarine.  Does it detect it?  If so does the torpedo boat stop just
as if it tried to move into the submarine's hex?  If it doesn't, does the
sub stay on the map even after the torpedo boat moves past?  (I think it
should, since it would simulate radioing the position of the sub to the
rest of fleet.)


What I'd like to see, and I can almost guarantee Jens saying "no" for this :)
is that the sub's hex should be grayed as a regular movement hex,

I REALLY don't like that. It relegates submarine's stealth to basically being Wonder Woman's invisible jet. ("Is there anything on the radar?" "Nothing to worry about sir. Just a woman in a siting position at 20,000 feet moving in a mach 2.")

but if you try to pass through it, then the sub immediately becomes active and you *must* fire on it. Neither player gets the choice.

But the surface ship player does have a choice. He sees the big gaping submarine shaped hole on his scope (because he hasn't actaully detected the sub now), and then he makes the decision to move through the hole, knowing full well that when he the hole will immediately be filled with a submarine and he'll have to shoot it.


--
Jonathan Koren World domination? I'll leave that to the jkoren@xxxxxxxxxx religious nuts and Republicans, thank you.
http://www.cs.siu.edu/~jkoren/ -- The Monarch, "Venture Brothers"