Re: submarines (was: Re: Stealth)

[Dave Fancella <davidfancella@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Tuesday 12 April 2005 01:02 pm, Jonathan Koren wrote:
> I REALLY don't like that.  It relegates submarine's stealth to basically
> being Wonder Woman's invisible jet.  ("Is there anything on the radar?"
> "Nothing to worry about sir.  Just a woman in a siting position at 20,000
> feet moving in a mach 2.")
>
> > but if you try to pass through it, then the sub immediately becomes
> > active and you *must* fire on it.  Neither player gets the choice.
>
> But the surface ship player does have a choice.  He sees the big gaping
> submarine shaped hole on his scope (because he hasn't actaully detected
> the sub now), and then he makes the decision to move through the hole,
> knowing full well that when he the hole will immediately be filled with a
> submarine and he'll have to shoot it.

Aha, but the point is that they don't see the sub on radar.  Now, we're not 
getting all anal and dealing with the depth of the sub, we're just assuming 
that a sub underwater is undetectable unless you're right on top of it.  The 
reason the surface player doesn't have a choice is because he *doesn't* see 
the sub.  So the sub attacks.  The reason the sub player doesn't have a 
choice is an arbitrary imposition of game balance, since we're not actually 
trying to build a real war simulator here.

Now we should ask ourselves more about the technological sophistication of the 
combatants.  Personally, I don't really see any reason the Kandelians would 
be using sea units in the first place.  Seems like they should be using 
orbit-to-surface fighters.  Land units are still needed to take cities and so 
forth, and when you get right down to it, it's cheaper to fight a war from 
land than from orbit.  But an orbit-to-surface fighter should be able to 
operate as a typical aircraft, only with a *lot* more fuel (it has to go into 
orbit).  Of course we also haven't talked much about the Kandelian space 
navy.

The only reason I see the FNA as fielding submarines is because they haven't 
even gone orbital yet (so no satellites for them, but Kand could have 
plenty).  So the FNA are fighting from what is essentially 20th Century naval 
doctrine using a navy that was constructed with 25th century technology (the 
Nexians have recovered that much technology minus spaceflight), so submarines 
are perfectly in line with FNA's available weapons.

But I still see 99% or more of Kandelian shipping being handled with orbital 
shipping, ships launched from a spaceport into orbit and then back down to 
their destination.  Maybe they'll use rail over land.  Light shipping 
wouldn't happen through orbit, but would happen on the surface.  Light 
shipping wouldn't happen at all in the sea.  What's left of Kandelian heavy 
shipping that has to go over large bodies of water should still go on the 
orbital ships, they just don't actually go orbital on that flight.

So what's left for the FNA submarines to attack?  Now, we're not just talking 
about submarine mission anymore, we're talking about generic targets that 
justify the FNA going through the trouble and expense to produce the damn 
things.

If they could hit land targets, emplacements, and/or occupy a city, that would 
justify their existence to the FNA.  That means carrying strategic weapons 
that can hit land targets, such as larger missiles (not necessarily nukes).

Another thing that would justify the existence of submarines is when you 
consider that Kandelian satellites can't see underwater, but they can see 
ships on the water.  So the FNA would use submarines for their overseas 
shipping, since otherwise their overseas shipping would be exposed to orbital 
sensors.

Now then, :) Kand has a typical sea-based navy because that's how the game has 
been put together so far.  Personally, I think that should be removed in 
favor of an orbital approach.  An empire as large as Kand has the resources 
to attack from orbit, rendering our 21st century conceptions of how expensive 
orbital flights are as outdated and primitive in comparison.  So they not 
only have the resources to make the attack, they also have the necessary 
military doctrine to make the attack.  In the long run, in order to win the 
war, (please no Battlefield: Earth flashbacks right now) FNA is going to have 
to go orbital to fight.  So they need to have a few missions where they take 
spaceports and important spaceship production facilities.  If FNA doesn't go 
orbital, then Kand can just throw rocks at 'em until there's nothing left of 
Nexian society besides a few cannibals throwing stones in the air.  Until FNA 
goes orbital, they're operating with their existing military technology, 
which should consist of long-range missiles (not necessarily ICBMs, the 
storyline has the other continent of the planet shrouded in secrecy until I 
write that part), missile defense emplacements around cities and other 
potential targets, airships (which we have), regular navy, and regular army.  
Maybe some mechanized infantry (Starship Troopers?).  Oh yeah, lasers, plasma 
cannons, etc.  Typical Dave Weber weapons, in fact.

Kand, on the other hand, should be putting Kandelian infantry in the fancy 
suits while the conscripted and allied Nexians will resemble typical Nexian 
infantry.  They should have missiles, and the whole range of Dave Weber 
weapons (plasma cannons, rail guns, etc), and also a variety of kinetic 
weapons in their orbital stations.  Since Kand uses so much local talent to 
fight this war (I'm wagering that we only see real aliens on the map in a few 
places on all existing scenarios, with troops on both sides being native 
Nexian), then it stands to reason that they use a lot of local technology.

So the question I'm asking, then, is does Kand have a regular sea-based navy 
on Nexus?  If so, why?  Justify a Kandelian navy.

Now, early in the game, I can easily justify a Kandelian navy.  Kand wants to 
use local talent and resources to put down the revolt: it's cheaper that way.  
Later on, though, Kand needs to start pulling out the big guns and bringing 
down the orbital fighters, even bombing from orbit, possibly putting the 
entire planet under seige again.

Dave

>
> --
> Jonathan Koren			World domination?  I'll leave that to the
> jkoren@xxxxxxxxxx		religious nuts and Republicans, thank you.
> http://www.cs.siu.edu/~jkoren/		-- The Monarch, "Venture Brothers"

-- 
Oreo.