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On Fri, 2006-06-23 at 08:48 -0700, Adrian Nania wrote:
> Al,
>
> Your review is great and I could not agree more. Just a small detail:
> Ubuntu default gEDA packages are to old to be of any use.
>
> Adrian Nania
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: geda-user-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:geda-user-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of al davis
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 6:45 AM
> To: gEDA user mailing list
> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Help request
>
> On Friday 16 June 2006 16:21, Svenn Are Bjerkem wrote:
> > What is it with Ubuntu or Kubuntu that makes you _not_ use Debian
> > directly?
>
> I use Debian directly, but I think I can explain it...
>
> First, take a look at what Debian offers... There are 3
> variants: "stable", "testing" and "unstable".
>
> "Stable" is in the opinion of many, too stable for comfort. It has two
> important distinguishing characteristics. The first is that it is
> reputed to be extremely reliable, making it well suited for servers that
> absolutely must work, with a minimum of down time. The second is that
> it is a long time between releases, and even when a version is released
> it is a year or so behind. With a 2 year release cycle, this means it
> is about
> 3 years behind when the next major release comes out. I have heard it
> called "Debian Fossil". This is ok for a server, usually, but "desktop"
> users usually want something more recent. It gets a lot of criticism
> for this. Between major updates, the only changes important bug fixes.
> Security related bugs are addressed very fast. When there is such a fix
> in a new "upstream" release of a package, they won't use the new
> release. Instead, they patch the old release to fix the bug.
>
> On the other extreme is "unstable" which tries to be always current. It
> usually includes the most recent "stable" release of most packages. It
> usually doesn't go so far as the development snapshots. To do this, it
> means daily updates.
> Sometimes a single package can be updated several times in a week.
> Occasionally it breaks.
>
> "Testing" is somewhere in between, but much closer to "unstable".
> Basically, if a package survives 10 days without serious bug reports in
> "unstable", it automatically moves to "testing". There are daily
> updates, but they are not as big as in "unstable". When a package is so
> volatile to be itself updated daily, these versions do not propagate to
> "testing". Occasionally it breaks.
>
> This set of 3 does not provide what a typical casual desktop user wants,
> which is fairly stable, but not so much as to be years behind.
>
> Debian is a distribution for techies. There are certain aspects of it
> that make it appeal to the more technically oriented.
> Beginners are often intimidated by this.
>
> Looking at these two issues, this is where Ubuntu comes in. It provides
> a sort-of stable release, with major updates about twice a year, then
> holding except for important updates between them. As I understand,
> they take a snapshot of Debian (testing or unstable, I am not sure
> which), freeze it, and harden a subset of packages that are important to
> mainstream desktop users. It is a similar process to Debian stable, but
> only on a subset of the packages and a subset of the platforms. This
> becomes the "main" part of the distribution. The rest of Debian becomes
> the "universe" part of the distribution, without any additional testing.
> You need to enable the universe. It is off by default. It is a check
> box in the graphic installer.
>
> The latest version (Dapper) of Ubuntu has a graphic installer and a live
> CD. You can run off the CD like Knoppix with a subset of the packages.
> Then click the install icon to install on your hard disk if you want.
> It is a nice graphic installer, with a few issues that are expected on a
> first release. The previous release (Breezy) used the Debian installer.
>
> There are several variants of Ubuntu, but they are all on an equal
> level, with different focuses. There is "kubuntu" which substitutes KDE
> for Gnome. There is a server version. There are a few others.
>
> As I understand, Ubuntu gives the changes back to Debian, which it
> respects as sort of a master distribution. Lots of the Debian packages
> do have Ubuntu entries in the change logs.
>
> So, it is a fairly up-to-date, newbie friendly variant of Debian. I
> think of it as the Debian variant between stable and testing.
>
> When you want to move on to Debian (testing or unstable), just change
> some info in /etc/apt/sources.list, then "sudo apt-get update" and "sudo
> apt-get dist-upgrade".
>
> Regarding Stuart's comment about a disproportionate share of install
> problems on Ubuntu (but not Debian). The difference is that Ubuntu,
> being more newbie friendly and being marketed as such, attracts more
> newbies who are likely to have trouble by overlooking things that people
> who have been around consider obvious. I think it is good that it is
> bringing these people into the fold, who would still be on MS-Windows
> otherwise.
> Most of them who try to use the CD don't realize that Ubuntu packages
> for gEDA already exist. You just need to "sudo apt-get install geda".
>
> I am not trying to convince anyone to use any particular distribution.
> I am just conveying what I believe their intent is.
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