Re: [kidsgames] Just Subscribed.

[Kidsgames Project Coordinator - Jeff Waddell <jeff@smluc.org>]

Hi Steve,

On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Steve Baker wrote:

-->Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:37:25 -0600
-->From: Steve Baker <sjbaker1@airmail.net>
-->Reply-To: kidsgames@smluc.org
-->To: kidsgames@smluc.org
-->Subject: Re: [kidsgames] Just Subscribed.
-->
-->Kidsgames Project Coordinator - Jeff Waddell wrote:
-->
-->> -->Pretty soon, Oliver got frustrated with the S-L-O-W pace of development,
-->> -->and I decided to rope him in to the effort.  He wanted a house for
-->> -->Tux to live in - and so I showed him how to build one using the AC3D
-->> -->model editor.  Well, to cut a long story short, Oliver is now pretty
-->> -->good at throwing together models quickly.
-->> -->
-->> 
-->> So has he made any of the TUX AQH levels?
-->
-->None of the ones in the current distribution are 100% his - but he
-->has built some complete levels.  They tend to be a bit - um - arbitary,
-->things happen without warning - and - well, they just don't "work"
-->well enough to put into the main distribution.
-->

Ok.  I'm sure he will improve.

-->So he's contributed a lot of the individual objects in the scenery. On
-->one level, I needed some spikes to shoot out of a wall - he built the
-->spikes and the wall - I needed a model of a refrigerator - he made me
-->one, that kind of thing - perhaps 40% of the 3D objects in the game
-->are his.  He's also built some objects like a dog and an elephant
-->that are really GREAT - but require a lot of software effort to
-->animate them and have them participate in the game play.
-->

Sounds really great, is there a repository for 3d objects out there
somewhere?

-->Planning a whole game level takes a lot of thought - it's quite
-->hard even for an adult.  For example, there is no use having a
-->bunch of spikes shoot out of a wall when there is no reason to
-->walk along next to the wall.  It just doesn't "work". You have
-->to have a narrow path that leads you past the wall - and a reason
-->to walk along the path (you can see a golden herring at the end
-->of it) - and some way to know that there are going to be spikes
-->shooting out of the wall so you stand a chance to avoid them.
-->

Yeah I see what you are saying.

-->That kind of complex reasoning still seems to elude Oliver. He
-->wants to use his imagination to design interesting things that
-->can happen - but doesn't seem able to piece them together to
-->make a complete level.  That's fine though - it'll come with
-->time and experience...and his levels are in the version of
-->the game that runs on our machines here at home.
-->

Does it disappoint him when other's play his level and don't spring his
neat stuff?

-->Level design is a hard skill to learn.
-->

For any game, so not having tools in place to help with that task, means
the people who MIGHT have the talent to do level design a pretty much left
out because it's too hard to actually "build" the level for most games
even if you KNOW what you want to do (not I you may have a perfectly
wonderful level editor for Tux_AQFH, I still don't have 3d
hardware)

-->(BTW: Tux_AQFH really is a 'cute' game - despite the spikes! Tux
-->doesn't ever get really hurt and there is no blood or anything.
-->The spikes make him say "OW!" and push him sideways off the path
-->so you have to go back and try again.)
--> 

go Tux! go Tux! go Steve! go Steve! Go Oliver!!!! ;)

-->> -->This would fulfill the desire to have a free video game that would
-->> -->never end - since new levels would be constructed as fast as we could
-->> -->solve them.
-->> -->
-->> 
-->> Now that DOOM and Quake have come into being "free", there seems to be a
-->> lot of "developer drain" as they put resources there instead.  I don't
-->> know if that is good or bad...?
-->
-->Well, it's a shame those games are *so* violent.
-->

Agreed.

-->Quake has a 'M' ESRB rating - which makes it suitable for the 17+ age
-->group...that's NOT good.
-->

Agreed.

-->They are technologically pretty amazing.  The rendering quality leaves
-->Tux_AQFH in the dust - but that's the difference between a 100 man year
-->project and a one man year project.
--> 

So how do we tap into that already spent 100 man years and combine it (not
necessarily literally, but experience wise) with the one man year project
to come up with stuff that doesn't take us ANOTHER 101 man year's to
create?

-->> -->Regrettably, the number of significant contributions to the Tux game
-->> -->hovers around the zero level.
-->> 
-->> Don't despair!!!!!  Perhaps they love the level that is there so much it
-->> has not occurred to them to make there own.  As a "kids" game the
-->> "serious" gamer's won't go near it yet I think.  And kids don't have the
-->> skills (Oliver excluded) to make their own levels, or have already done so
-->> and are happily playing them without realizing they need to send those
-->> levels to you.
-->
-->No - I'm pretty sure nobody else has built a level.
-->

If I had the tools I would build at least 1 level (I don't guarantee it
would be even as good as Oliver's but I WOULD attempt it)

-->> -->However, it's become evident that the AC3D modeller that Oliver and
-->> -->I have been using is somewhat inadequate to the job of building
-->> -->Tux levels - and perhaps that explains why I've had no help (but
-->> -->perhaps not - I don't think people have been trying to build new
-->> -->levels and failing - they just aren't interested in offering their
-->> -->time).
-->> -->
-->> 
-->> Considering most people I know DON'T have 3d hardware I think it hardly
-->> surprising that they aren't making more levels.
-->
-->Well, 15,000 people downloaded the game - and a survey on HappyPenguin
-->showed that 80% of it's respondants have 3D hardware.
--> 

Ok, of the people with 3d hardware that played the game [as opposed to
those who downloaded it just to say they had it], what would they have to
actually DO to make a level, and what would motivate them to do so?  Also,
if they did make a level, is there a significant reason for them to return
the level to you or would they just exchange it with their friends?

-->> -->So, my current project is 'Pretty Poly Editor' - a polygon-level
-->> -->3D editor that should be PERFECTLY suited to building 3D models
-->> -->for Linux-based OpenGL games.  Once Prettypoly is working well,
-->> -->I'll return to finish Tux.
-->> -->
-->> 
-->> I noticed that sourceforge has about 5 different 3d editor projects going,
-->> I wonder if they could either be merge or otherwise help each other?
-->
-->Well, it gets a bit technical - but none of the other projects are
-->suited to the needs of amateur games writers.  Most are aimed at
-->high-quality non-realtime rendering.
-->
-->

"non-realtime" rendering would not work well in game ;)

Steve, have you seen xcruise?  It's not a game, but it is a very
interesting view of one's file system, I would like to know how hard it
would be to base a file manager off that concept shown in xcruise using
PLIB?  One of my dreams is to have a fully 3d working environment (someday
in the far future probably...)

http://tanaka-www.cs.titech.ac.jp/%7Eeuske/prog/xcruise-0.24.tar.gz

drop the file name off the url to read his software webpage.

-- 
Jeff Waddell
jeff@smluc.org

Kids Games Project Coordinator
main website at http://smluc.org/SIA/kidsgames/


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