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Re: [pygame] New pygame.org website

We are proposing to use github because it gives us both git source control for versioning, free hosting, and a nice way to control contribution to the repository. There aren't "additional complications" of github, but rather desired features. 

— Daniel

On 12/23/2016 04:44 PM, Miriam English wrote:

Hi Thomas,
Those maintainers who have access to their part of the ibiblio site and to sourceforge projects can update them as often as they want. No matter what site you use it seems to me that there will still only be a small core of people with access, so the additional complications of github seem to me to be rather wasted.
Do I understand it correctly? You are proposing to use github, something designed to easily branch updates to software, purely to host webpages? It seems a little like getting a lamborghini purely to do the weekly grocery shopping. Github is a new, cool thing, and might look like it is the solution to everything, but is it? (I notice there seems to be some confusion here -- some are saying everything should go on github, others seem to be insisting only the webpages.)
Please note I'm not actually arguing against github. I know it sounds like I am, but I'm not. I'm cautioning that humans tend to get an idea fixed in their minds and we push for that regardless of its suitability. We get trapped in a mindset. I just want to ensure that doesn't screw the future pygame site by making the wrong choice early on when it could be changed.
I'll throw in another idea: we could all put in a couple of dollars and buy a website which we could have *total* control over. That would give any degree of access or restriction desired, and the ability to host static pages until maybe we came up with a really easy way to do dynamic pages (personally, I prefer static pages). We could have any amount of anti-spam measure we wished. Again, I'm not actually pushing this idea; it is just another suggestion.
And another: someone on this list is sure to be associated with a university. They often make available part of their site for worthy projects. That would allow a high degree of degree of access and autonomy, but would be free. 

I'm sure there are other possibilities.

Cheers,

    - Miriam


Thomas Kluyver wrote:

Hi Miriam,
Looking at ibiblio.org <http://ibiblio.org>, it's talking about an application process to host a 'collection' there ("A decision will be made and you will be notified."). This sounds rather controlled for a simple static site, and I'm concerned that it won't be as easy as we want to update the site and for multiple people to work on it. Clicking around the distros section, it looks like most distros host downloads there but have a website somewhere else (so far, Fat Dog is the only one I've found with web pages there). This suggests to me that it's not ideal for hosting a website.
It's hard to put my finger on what's wrong with it, because clearly you *can* host static web pages there. But looking around the information pages and the Q&A site, I get a very strong feeling that hosting there would involve a lot of time and hassle that I don't want.
Similarly for archive.org <http://archive.org>, I think it's intended as... well, an archive! That's valuable, but it's not the problem we're trying to solve.
Github pages is a very convenient way to host a website, and to manage multiple people making changes to it. I know a lot of open source projects whose websites are hosted this way. It does require using git to update the site, and I'm sorry if that's difficult for you, but it's a system that works well for a lot of people. None of the arguments I've read so far provide a compelling reason /not/ to host a site on Github, and the only option that I see as a reasonable alternative is Gitlab, which presumably works in a very similar way to Github.
> Is it possible to have something that is safe, but easy for newbies to add games to a site?
I think it is, if we accept that it just needs to be 'safe enough'. Automatically adding 'nofollow' on user provided links reduces its value to spammers a lot. I believe Google's recaptcha tool does a reasonable job of stopping bots. And if it's still not enough, we can authenticate users and require an admin to approve a user's first submission. 

Thomas
On 23 December 2016 at 01:45, Miriam English <mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: 

    The two repositories I mentioned, ibiblio.org <http://ibiblio.org>
    and archive.org <http://archive.org> (I'm sure there are more)
    have, as far as I know, no limits on storage.

    Have a look, for instance at the amount stored for Puppy Linux at
    ibiblio:
    http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/
    <http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/>

    Each of those subdirectories you see relates to a different kind
    of Puppy.

    The packages directories contain programs specifically tailored
    for a particular distribution of Puppy. The pet_packages-lucid
    directory alone contains more than 10 Gigabytes of programs, and
    there are more than 30 Puppy distros with associated package
    collections.

    The puppy-528 directory contains a couple of ISO CD images for
    Puppy Lucid 528. It also contains an explanatory webpage:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-5.2.8/release-Lucid-528.htm
<http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-5.2.8/release-Lucid-528.htm>

    Most of the main distro directories contain such a page.

    There is lots more on ibiblio, as a quick wander around
    http://distro.ibiblio.org/ will show.
    They also have multiple mirrors around the world, so if one set of
    servers has a problem others are available.

    Cheers,

        - Miriam


    Charles Cossé wrote:

        Hi,

        On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Miriam English
        <mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:

            I don't see the point of using github for the web pages and
            keeping the content elsewhere. I don't have a lot of
        experience
            using github (I find it a pain actually). Github is
        intended as a
            versioning system. That has no utility for a pygame
        repository, as
far as I can see -- or at least no advantage over an ordinary 
            repository built purely with that purpose in mind.

            Wouldn't it be simpler to keep the whole thing in a
        repository? I
            mentioned 2 earlier: archive.org <http://archive.org>
        <http://archive.org> and
        ibiblio.org <http://ibiblio.org> <http://ibiblio.org>, both of
        which are free and very

            secure.


        I can say a little bit that might help until someone with more
        knowledge has time to reply ... With GitHub pages your website
        is "just another" repo.  That's the main thing I wanted to
        point out.  There are no storage limits, and I'm pretty sure
        that GitHub would be happy to help pygame accomodation-wise if
        pygame needed anything special (within reason).   I also know
        that there is a 4 gigabyte file limit on GitHub.  (I know this
        because I once wanted to host an 8G SD card image and had to
        get it down to 4G in order to be housed on GitHub).

        FWIW, I have also managed to run webapps on GitHub via GitHub
        pages.  For example
        http://asymptopia.github.io/TuxMathScrabble-2015/
<http://asymptopia.github.io/TuxMathScrabble-2015/>.

        And, not trying to direct traffic to my site or anything, but
        here's my own site using GitHub pages:
        https://asymptopia.github.io/

        Best regards,
        Charles

            Cheers,

                - Miriam


            Thomas Kluyver wrote:
Thanks everyone for your input. In the interests of making 
                progress, I'd like to propose:

                - The informational site will be hosted on Github
        pages; I've
                used this for a number of websites before, it's
        reliable, we
                can point an external domain to it, and I imagine that
        most of
                the likely contributors have Github accounts already.
                - The pages will be generated by a Python static site
                generator. There doesn't seem to be a strong feeling
        between
                Sphinx/Nikola/Pelican, so it will likely depend on who
        is most
                excited to start building it.
                - The game feed will also be generated from content in
        Github,
so /at first/ developers will need to submit a PR to add a 
                game. Once that's working, we can build a simpler
        submission
                interface on Heroku/Appengine/similar which can push
        content
                to Github. Ideally the data will be in a format which
        would
                could move elsewhere later if necessary.

                I like the concept of drawing the game feed from an
        external
                source, but I don't think any of the sources proposed
        match
                what we want closely enough.

                Does anybody object to any of those proposals?

                Thanks,
                Thomas

                On 18 December 2016 at 20:18, Miriam English
        <mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

        <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        <mailto:mim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
http://ibiblio.org is an enormous, free repository that also lets 
                    you have static webpages. Many of the Linux
        distros are hosted
from there as well as much else too. I don't know how 
                you'd set up
                    a comments system there. It may be possible.

        http://archive.org is another gigantic free repository. They
                    already have a comments system built into their
        pages. I don't
                    know how it works. It might be worth checking out.

                    Both these organisations are free and are aimed at
        helping
                make
                    content available to the community which might
        otherwise
                be lost.
You have complete control over the look of webpages at 
        ibiblio.org <http://ibiblio.org> <http://ibiblio.org>
        <http://ibiblio.org> because you simply upload static pages.

                    I don't know how much control over the look
        archive.org <http://archive.org>
        <http://archive.org>
        <http://archive.org> provides because everything is dynamically

                    served from xml data, I think. It might be
        possible to add
                static
                    content, I don't know.

                    But both are free, permanently available, and have
                excellent security.

                    Cheers,

                        - Miriam



                    Peter Shinners wrote:

                        Gitlab also has great static site support for
        free,
                and you
                        can use custom domains. They also make it easy
        to run most
                        static generation tools as a CI job. Although
        part of me
                        thinks just pushing the static content is
        easiest. It
                sounds
                        to me like there's a list of acceptable hosting
                choices that
                        won't cost anything.

                        Keeping the games list as a feed from other
        service sounds
                        like it has the best chance of working.


                        On 12/17/2016 10:51 PM, Lenard Lindstrom wrote:

                            Bitbucket also has static web site
        support. I set
                one up
                            for the Pygame docs awhile ago, but have not
                maintained it:

        http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/>
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/>>
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/>
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/
        <http://pygame.bitbucket.org/docs/pygame/>>>

                            The repository is here:

        https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org
<https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org>
        <https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org
<https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org>>
        <https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org
<https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org>
        <https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org
<https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame.bitbucket.org>>>

                            Lenard Lindstrom

                            On 16-12-17 09:16 PM, Daniel Foerster wrote:

                                You know, I suppose we could just use
        GitHub
                pages.

                                On Dec 17, 2016 17:32, "Charles Cossé"
        <ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>>>>
                                wrote:



                                    On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 4:12 PM,
        Daniel
                Foerster
        <pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>>>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pydsigner@xxxxxxxxx>>>>>
        wrote:

                                        Using S3/CloudFront is a lot
        cheaper
                than the
                                EC2 setup you're
                                        imagining (and which a Django
        stack would
                                require).



                                    I never said to use Amazon at
        all.  Just
                use the
                                current server,
                                    whatever it is (unless it's Amazon).

                                        On 12/17/2016 05:11 PM,
        Charles Cossé
                wrote:

                                            Yikes!  who's gonna pay
        the Amazon
                bill?

                                            On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at
        4:09 PM, Paul
                                    Vincent Craven
        <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        <mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:

                                                If most of the site is
        static,
                then I
                                    think Django would
                                                be overkill. The static
                portion of the
                                    site can easily be
                                                deployed via Amazon
                S3/CloudFront and
                                    then we'd not have
                                                to maintain a server.

                                                Paul Vincent Craven

                                                On Sat, Dec 17, 2016
        at 5:00 PM,
                                    Charles Cossé
        <ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ccosse@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:


                                                    On Sat, Dec 17,
        2016 at
                3:26 PM,
                                    Thomas Kluyver
        <takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>>
        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>>>
        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>>

        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:takowl@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:


                                                        So far, I
        think the
                proposals
                                    for the static
information
        part of
                the site
                                    are Nikola (a static
                                                        site generator
                oriented around
                                    blogs) and Sphinx
(oriented around
                docs). Both
                                    are written in
                                                        Python. Does
        anyone
                want to
                                    make the case for any
                                                        other system?


                                                    Can Django
        factor-in there? I
                                    guess it would reside
                                                    underneathe the
        other pkgs
                ... but
                                    might as well run
                                                    Python
        through-and-through
                imho.





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    One is darkness and despair. The other is light and hope.
    Which wolf wins?
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     -- Casey in Brad Bird's movie "Tomorrowland"