Re: The Kernel (fwd)

[Rick Jones <rickya@siservices.net>]

I don't beleive I'm even bothering to respond to this.  As it's obvious
from your statement at the end that you haven't been following this
whole thing.

> He needs people to test it - we need something that works to build on.  A
> house needs a foundation, you can't make it levitate.  He's doing work,
> are you?  I am.  AFAIK, Omega is.  So is arma.  So is fluffy.  Ask him to
> share his sources with you, edit them.

The foundation is Debian.  Go to  ftp.debian.org and you'll find
everything that Geroge is moving to his machine.  Why, I don't know.

I'm the UI project leader.  I'd say I'm working.

> > Have you ever been involved in developing software, George?
> >
> I would guess he has.  He apparently knows C, and how to hack makefiles.
> Do you?

Those things are involved in developing software, but just because you
know how doesn't mean you have.

Yes.  I have done some C, C++, and Java programming.  Yes. I know how to
modify a Makefile.   I have also developed an Intelligence gathering
relational database package for The U.S. Military.  It's used in
$40,000,000 main frame systems around the world that have 6 means of
communications and 3 different network types.  I worked on the systems
and software in that system for 6 years.

I'd say I have a passing familiarity with what's involved in developing,
testing, and fielding software.

> > You don't seem to have a clue as to what these (seul-dev-) lists are
> > for.  These aren't "users lists".
> >
> No, they're not.  seul-dev-distrib...  Hmm, I wonder what the dev could
> mean...

My point.  Follow a thread before you answer to it.

> This is not the proper forum for swearing, nor flamebait.

Sorry lovey.

> And that, friends, is how vapourware is born!

Funny.  That's how successful comercial software is born.  Ever heard of
a think-tank?  You know what it's purpose is?

> Have you installed Debian?  Tell us what you don't like about the install!
> Maybe even submit some code.  I would, but I've got to work on the
> website.  Maybe you can help me out and do some work on the webpage?

I've been running Debian longer thatn George has.  As a matter of fact I
helped him, when he was a newby, to get his sytem working properly.  His
X windows as I remember.

Again if you'd been following the list you would know I have been
talking with George and Omega both about the installation process. 
Which, I might add is what started this thread to begin with.

> Well, it's little pain in the neck called reality...

What is this supposed to mean?

> You work for the government, don't you?

I did.  What does that have to do with George doind nothing but shooting
down any idea that is against his own and saying "there are larger
issues to deal with" and other similar things.  He continuously tells
the list, no matter what the subject is, that he is too busy working on
more important aspects, but still has not told anybody "what" he is
working on so "we" can help him do it.

> No, it isn't.  Yet, you haven't posted a patch yet.  George's carrying his
> end of the stick, care to pitch in somewhere?

What do you know about what I'm doing or not doing?  Funny.  I'm subed
to all the lists including the leaders list and I haven't got a clue
what he's doing.  So, how do you know what he's doing?

> Only so much can be done until we have an installing dist(and I stress to
> George that it be small enough to FTP a tarfile of it, under 10Megs,
> whether I buy a copy of Debian or not depends on whether I win the auction
> on that Super-8 movie camera I never should have bid on...)

Debian is free.  You can install it over ftp.  Since it is the base, I'd
say we *have* an installing dist to build on.

> Whoops, there's that swearword again...  The english language has over
> 100,000 words: Use a different one.  I'll have to dig through the archives
> to find that suggestion, what was the subject of the e-mail?(I have to
> skim through the long messages, so I might've missed it)  I'll d/l
> George's boot image and dd it to a floppy, and see what I can do.

Don't bother.  Me and another guy did and tried to talk to George about
it and he faught with us over it.  You are missing the picture.  George
is just tweeking aspects of Debian *he* thinks need it and *telling* us
what he's doing.  That is the beef, and I'm not the only one that has
noticed this.

I beleive another guy refered to it as him shoving Debian down our
throats.  Or did you miss that one to?

> He's planning to make a distribution.  Like I said, every house has a
> foundation, and that's what we're doing right now.  TTYL!

He already has an NFS mount to a Debian mirror.  How much more
"foundation" do we need?  I'm running Debian hamm (2.0) so I guess I
already have the "foundation".  I don't hink theres one person that
can't get whatever package he wants to work on from one of the many
Debian mirrors.

So whatever someone wants to work on, it's right there.  So why don't
you tell me, if nobody is talking about what SEUL is going to be on the
list.  How do any of you know what you're trying to acomplish?  How do
the non-leaders in the lists know *what* they can do?  Or should we just
all work on whatever we want and submit it, even though 10 other people
might have done the same thing.

Explain that.  There's very little communication at all.  There are 0
(zero) outlines posted so anybody can pick a project and start to work. 
I'm trying to get the distro leader to post some such thing and you are
telling me he's too busy copying an FTP archive, or it's not realistic
to do that, or that's how vaporware is born.

You ask me, no, you TELL me I haven't posted anything, which I guess
makes me useless in this list.  Did you see my post asking where the ftp
site is?  I remember something about it mentioned and nothing since
then.  How is a non-leader, not to mention leader, supposed to know
where to upload packages, assuming he can figure out what to work on to
begin with.

This is really getting pathetic.  We are talking about creating a "Linux
core standard" and a distro that can compete with Win95 but there isn't
enough organization here to coordinate a game of cards.

We've got a developers list leader that doesn't think there's time to
listen to the people on the list, because he's too busy mirroring an ftp
site.  He told me that the first collection of the foundation is going
to be Debian 2.0.  So exactly what stick does he have the end of?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I am on the leaders list, and have been
given the task of putting together the UI.  Yet I have no place to put
anything, nobody on the list.  People sending UI stuff to the distro
list lead by somebody that doesn't want to talk about his area let alone
my area.

And now a guy that has no idea what he's talking about jumping into the
middle of this without even bothering to read what it's about, who is
evidently doing some kind of developing for us but rarely follows the
list.  Oh ya.  That sounds like a golden formula for success to me.

Were these lists shutdown and some new ones started or something?  I
have seen nobody talking with nobody about nothing yet this guy
indicates that theres tons of work going on and he knows all about it. 
Excuse me!  Is that in some private club that a so called "leader" isn't
privy to?

C'mon people.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  There is nothing to build
unless you know what you are building to begin with.  Otherwise you're
just spinning your wheels.  For a week he's been working on the base
distro, or whatever he wants to call it, and all it is is a *COPY* of
Debian. Hmmm...how many people could have already been assigned a
specific task and be done modifying their little piece by now.  Then we
would have a *REAL* part of SEUL in the archives.