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Re: SEUL: SEUL duplicating efforts?

Cyberdyn wrote:
> On 14-Feb-98 Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> - ->
> - -> But configuring the devices (setting links, in particular) is part of
> - -> configuring X. It can't really be seperated. If I get a new vid card, I
> - -> should be able to reconfigure with just one program. That program should
> - -> take care of both detection and configuration.
> No.  Setting up the mouse and keyboard are not a part of X config.  The mouse
> and keyboard are setup at the console config level.  You simply need to
> inform X that they exist and where they are which can be automated.  Ofcourse
> the exception would be keyboard variations but I don't think this poses a
> specail problem.
> - -> hence the discussion concerning xdm. But hey, what about my menu based
> - -> 'shell' which
> - -> (a) just requires you to select and hit return (much like
> - -> point-and-click except not as pretty) and
> The point is that this "not as pretty" aspect falsely conveys the opinion of
> "not as good" to these types of users.  This pops up on the screen and a
> grimace pop's up on their face.
> - -> (b) allows you to change the initial run level to 5 (XDM) once the display
> - -> is set up ? relying on being able to boot into a graphical shell does seem
> - -> like risky business...
> I don't think runlevels should even be visable to the user, unless they are
> veterans.
> Booting into a graphical environment doesn't have to be risky at all.
> - -> though this shouldn't really require input from the user... the point is
> - -> that the RedHat Xconfig program seems to require the user to set the link
> - -> which is really silly...
> At most the user should be prompted to click a button or rotate the mouse so
> the ports can be monitored to set the link to the mouse.
> - -> well until X is set up correctly, it really should ! with a menu shell,
> - -> you can just select 'start graphics' from the (root) shell menu and hit
> - -> return. You could even choose 'start graphics at boot next time'. I've
> - -> seen X fail before several times (and screwed it up myself on a few
> - -> occasions) and
> - -> having a text console to boot into until X works would be a very good
> - -> thing. Booting into xdm is nice when the display is set up, but if it's
> - -> not, you want an insurance policy. Well I do anyway.
> The main problem I've noticed in setting up X is that there is the immediate
> attempt to setup X for your hardware.  This is the wrong approach for a
> green-horn.  They should be forced into the generic setup known to work on
> nearly every hardware combination in existance.  Then work their way up to
> optimal config.
> - -> Another idea : on SunOS, they have something where it starts
> - -> sunview/openwin when you log in by default, but allows you to interrupt
> - -> and go to the shell by hitting ^C. I wonder if something like this could
> - -> be done ?
> This is a very good idea.  We can use the init file that starts xdm to script
> in a short delay and key sequence to send them straight into a menu like the
> one you get with F8 when booting Windows.
> - -> the problem is that the installation process often seems unaware that it
> - -> hasn't figured out the system. For example, I have seen X fire up and the
> - -> monitor squeal with a blank screen, and seen X fire up with screwed
> - -> vertical timings. the system doesn't "know" that it's not set up properly.
> - -> And unless some-one does something revolutionary with the monitor set up
> - -> procedure, there will be problems.
> There are ways around this, such as xvidtune.  Maybe lame but they are there.
>  If the user is forced into a basic server until his hardware is set to
> optimum config we should have little to no problem keeping them in a graphic
> environment.
Somehow my last comment on this list got lost.  The tools are there and
can work ( with a little help ).  XF86Setup is the best X setup tool I
used.  It's only flaw is that it needs a working mouse.  My idea; Fix it
so that you can easily select your mouse from a brain dead dialog. 
"Select mouse type from list" ( around 6 entries, with instructions to
the 'ms<->pc' switch if it exists to 'pc' ).  Then ask her to use the
tool ( "you should see a cursor.  move the mouse and watch the curser. 
it look ok ?" ).  If he hit's N or whatever the no option is, the setup
should say "let's try some other mouse settings and see if 1 of them
works ok",
it should then try for "mouse systems serial, ms mouse PS/2, ms mouse
mouse systems bus, etc... in some such order.  most popular first.
Another thing is ( and this can be done NOW ) is to sell a Linux
that includes a 3 button elchpo PS/2 mouse with a serial adapter.
There isn't a Taiwanese Manufacturer who wouldn't jump at the
opportunity to 
implement our design since the changes old be cosmetic ( larger M$ mouse
with 3 buttons and a Penguin coloration ) 
Why ? ... Because it would require major changes to get the full power
Linux from a 2 button mouse ( I never learned "emulate 3 button" ... too
hard )

PS : Matching penguin mouspad ? ... total cost Mouse + Pad = ~$4. in
Just in case RedHat or somebody else with capital reads this list.  
: "Through the firewall, out the router, down the T1, across the
: backbone, bounced from satellite, Nothing but net."