Re: EDU Distro - was Re: [seul-edu] Linux in Elementry

[Samuel Hart <criswell@geekcomix.com>]

On Thursday 23 August 2001 10:52am, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> > > I agree, and debconf is designed to be usable in that fashion: prime it
> > > with the variables you want to "pre-answer" and then let 'er rip.
> >
> > Right, but debconf, in and of itself, is still far too complicated for
> > the average educator to use.
>
> Eh? But ... the "average educator" would not be using it as I envision
> it.  I thought you just finished saying you wanted a turnkey solution?
> If you pre-configure the distro to pre-answer all those questions, then
> they are never even presented with debconf.  It just happens magically
> behind the scenes.

See, this is just coming down to a difference in goals. I am not belittling 
Debian Jr., nor I am I saying that what is needed is a Debian-based distro 
that uses non-standard Debian packages. I'm not even really talking about 
packages here, rather I am talking about the final "distro" that the person 
installing sees.

Speaking from experience, most of the people actually installing software in 
school districts are really just teachers who have had a week (or two) course 
in computer basics (usually amounting to "this is how you turn it on", "here 
are some apps you can use"). These are (typically) overworked, underpaid 
staff who have more important things to worry about (like grading papers and 
preping lessons) and do not have the skills (or the time to learn those 
skills) to install even the most simple thing.

So for them it would be best if there were a number of simple solutions that 
are very easy to install because they do not require them to make a lot of 
decisions (do I want this package, do I want that package). These solutions 
should be available on CD (since most schools do not have very reliable 
internet connections, and when they do, they always have censoring software 
that seem to censor all the important stuff [the Debian jr., Tux Typing, and 
Gimp websites cannot be accessed from within my wife's school]).

Now, one solution is not going to be adequate for all. For office 
administration staff, edutainment games wont be necessary, but they might 
need webservers you may not want in every classroom. In some schools, the 
staff could be so underskilled that even the most basic install would be too 
hard (hence the need for a installationless distro).

But by making multiple distros (perhaps I should say, "versions of the same 
distro") you can present educators with a number of simple, pre-configured 
solutions for very specific needs.

> > I never said make a whole new distro *from scratch*. I just said we
> > shouldn't take an existing distro and add layers upon it (such as
> > requiring them to install a RH/Debian/SuSE/etc. distro, and then apply a
> > layer of educational RPMs/DEBs to it.).
>
> Ah, well happily, I think we are saying the same thing, then. :)

yes, I think we are. We're just talking about it from two different 
perspectives: I'm coming at it from the educator end-user, and you from the 
developer end-user.

This is why I said we're watching intently the Debian Jr. progress.... 
Because it is exactly the sort of thing we (Tux4Kids) feel is needed to work 
behind the scenes.

Now, not even Woody's new UI installer will be simple enough for the average 
educator (and I'm not saying their dumb, I'm just saying they have too many 
other things to worry about to spend time to learn how). So what I am saying 
is needed is a few pre-configured choices for a number of different needs.

> I can't really comment with authority on this, having no experience with
> trying to preconfigure kernels to auto-detect and run on a variety of
> different hardware without intervention by the user.  (I assume that's
> the problem which is why SVGA is needed, which is the lowest common
> denominator?) But I thought XF4 came with tools that guessed reasonably
> well which chipset to use, doing away with the need to use the SVGA
> server.

Actually, our prototype still has (had) 3.3.6 on it. I think we could get 
better performance under XF4. The prototype is on hold for now, and we 
haven't worked seriously on it in a while.

> But important to remember.  Making a whole new distro is a whole
> different kettle of fish as far as I'm concerned because
> responsibilities shift.  Even if it is "Debian-based" you now need to
> maintain your own BTS, you have to deal with problems that may arise due
> to incompatibilities between your offerings and Debian's,
<snip>

But I never said make a whole new distro. I just said have the install CD 
already come pre-configured with certain packages (packages which would be 
from Debian itself ;-)

> Necessarily GUI?

Yeah, unfortunately.

I sat down my wife's teachers assistant at a terminal once so she could 
access her e-mail... and even tho it was very straight forward, she was 
totally confused and stressed by the lack of a GUI.

(It seems to me, and this is just an observation, that no matter how 
straight-forward you make a text UI, the sheer fact it is text-based can 
really stress non-computer people out.)

>But again, who wouldn't
> want a "simpler to install" Debian?  If you have some good ideas as to
> how to do that, why not work with Debian to get them into the
> distribution proper?

Yeah, I think people would. But the sort of ease I'm talking about comes at a 
great price most Debian users wouldn't want: You loose control during install.

For the end-users I'm talking about, the control that most Debian-users 
(myself included) want is very intimidating.

-- 
Sam "Criswell" Hart <criswell@geekcomix.com> AIM, Yahoo!: <criswell4069>
Homepage: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/ >
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Tux4Kids: < http://www.geekcomix.com/tux4kids/ >