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SEUL: Mail got bounced: Here are a few msgs that didn't get through...

I dunno what happened, but here they are...comment if you want!

            Re: SEUL: Re: What's the diff to SEUL ?
            Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:58:27 -0800
            Micah Yoder <yoderm@geocities.com>
            George Bonser <grep@oriole.sbay.org>

George Bonser wrote:

> > Because it's there! Of everything I've seen, and I scan the web
> > regularly, it absolutely the best and most complete desktop available.
> > It's actually usable NOW. GNOME has a long way to go, but I hope it gets
> > there, and e-linux may switch over when it's done. If e-linux and SEUL
> > use the same basic distibution, the two could merge easily in the
> > future.
> >
> > -Chris
> And their instance on usinmg KDE will absolutely kill the product. It will
> prevent anyone from selling their distribution and will prevent all but
> the large companies from developing packages for it.

No way!  The Qt license fully allows for it to be included in a Linux
distribution.  Other distribs (Suse and I think another) are using it.

I almost think Suse could start to replace RedHat as the "favorite" on
this issue alone....KDE is a very nice desktop, NOW!

            Re: SEUL: Re: What's the diff to SEUL ?
            Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:09:36 -0800
            Micah Yoder <yoderm@geocities.com>
            "Erik Walthinsen (Omega)" <omega@sequent.com>

Erik Walthinsen (Omega) wrote:

> > I think it's rediculous to base an entire
> > environment/dis' on on a single set of widgets/lib's, non-free to boot.
> > Next year they decide to change the license and it's all over.
> > Unuseable.  What then?  Buy the QT package?  Could this be their
> > alterior motive to start with?
> Very well put.  (conspiracy theory, here we come... :)  I believe that
> e-Linux's goal to use KDE/Qt is misguided for the above reasons.  There is
> no way to guarantee that Qt will remain available, which sets up the
> project (KDE, and thus e-Linux) to be dropped into the bit bucket as soon
> as the people at Troll Tech realize there is much money to be made.

Not a chance.  The most recent version (1.31) will always be under the
free license, even if a certain place freezes over and they change the
license on future versions.  In that case, the FAQ also said it's
possible to extend 1.31 using OOP inheritance.

> I have nothing against Qt/Troll Tech, or commercial development.  I just
> think it is pure folly to write an otherwise GPL'd (I think) environment,
> un top of a non-free library.

I pretty much agree ..... but I do urge us not to completely ignore all
Qt software.  It's not half as bad as you guys are making it out to be!

            Re: SEUL: Interest abounding...
            Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:30:55 -0800
            Micah Yoder <yoderm@geocities.com>
            Loren S Osborn <lso8219@cs.rit.edu>

Loren S Osborn wrote:

> What isn't being brought up, is the fact that SEUL (and e-linux also) are
> *VAPORWARE*... We all agree that, currently, Linux isn't very attractive
> to the end user: That's why we're working on SEUL/e-linux.  Linux *IS* a
> real product.  If we do alot of cool advertising with regaurd to SEUL,
> people will get frustrated because it doesn't exist, and give up on it.
> If we do alot of cool advertising (not specifically directed at sys-admins)
> and people will start getting curious about what Linux is *NOW*, find out,
> say "Yick! Why would I want to use anything like this?...", then when SEUL
> *DOES* come out, it will flop: because no users will like Linux...

Definitely wait until SEUL is a real product to start advertising. 
RedHat and Caldera should probably advertise their products increasingly
in mainstream magazines, but they should not tout them as an "end-all
replacement for Windows".  It's not yet.

But once we get a date that we can realistically ship 1.0 on, I'd be all
for generating a bunch of hype.  (*True* hype, unlike the kind M$

We should get someone in every area to demonstrate it to computer clubs,
computer stores, maybe give the local newspaper a demonstration (hey, a
*free* OS would be newsworthy!)  And maybe ads, but that might be hard
since we don't plan to actually *sell* anything.  And why would LI
contribute to us?  RedHat and Caldera are corporate members, and they
would compete with us.


            Re: SEUL: Re: What's the diff to SEUL ?
            Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:26:52 -0800
            Micah Yoder <yoderm@geocities.com>
            Bruce Perens <bruce@pixar.com>

Bruce Perens wrote:

> > > Word processing
> > > finance program
> > > Spreadsheets
> > > photoshop-beater, Illustrator-beater
> > > Presentation graphics
> > I think enough of these exist as fledgling projects that we can work with
> > them ("take them under our wing") and develop a whole suite of applications
> > that could compete with commercial apps.  The competition brings users to
> > Linux, and vendors follow suite very quickly when the discover M$
> > market-share decreasing... :-)

Is there a decent fledgling word processor project in the works?  I know
there used to be Wurd but I haven't been able to find it lately.

About spreadsheets, GNOME is working on Oleo.  I've never used it, but I
hear it's a single worksheet format...no workbooks.  And does it have
scripting language support?

> This is where I see SEUL workers have a big chance to contribute. While
> a few of you should concern yourselves with installation and system
> management, there's a lot more demand for people who would develop the
> components of an integrated productivity suite.

Yep......we really need a freeware office suite under the GTK, and
that's probably where some of us (more app-minded people) should start
focusing our attention.  I don't even know of anything that would serve
as a good base, so we'd have to start from scratch.  I want something
that can compare with Office97...... plus, have the Web publishing
features of Fr*ntPage and the workgroup integration features of Lotus
SmartSuite.  A big task, but the sooner we start, the sooner it gets

            Re: SEUL: Re: What's the diff to SEUL ?
            Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:49:24 -0800
            Micah Yoder <yoderm@geocities.com>
            Erik Walthinsen <omega@omegacs.net>
            Chris Barker <cbarker@ce.berkeley.edu>,

Erik Walthinsen wrote:

> It may not be so much that issue, but the cost for developers.  And that, in
> the long run, is a tremendous cost to Linux.  Developers will not go for
> Linux if it will cost them more money.  Granted, they already spend $$$$$ on
> Windoze development, but that's 85+% of the market.  Why would they spend
> money on a Linux port when there are very few customers.

But the Qt license would allow them to develop for *all* UNIX platforms,
*and* Windoze.  GTK doesn't do that.

> > As for developers, while QT's fee seems huge to use individuals, it's
> > really not all that big if you consider how much labor can be saved.
> How is GNOME any different?  A toolkit is a toolkit, +-.  Personally, I
> wouldn't even *consider* spending $5000 on Qt when I can use GNOME for free.

Last I checked, the X only license was well under $2000 (I forget if it
was $1200 or $1600...something like that).  The license for Doze and X
was about $2200.

More expensive than GTK, but it is a REALLY nice toolkit.  And it will
only be a fraction of the cost you'd pay a programmer to port the
software anyway.

Considering that Qt is stable and well designed and probably better laid
out than GTK, the cost of the programmer's time fiddling with GTK would
probably outweigh the cost of Qt.

[Again, I'm not advocating us basing anything on it.......just don't
ignore it!]

> As has been pointed out by someone else, KDE and Qt seem to be very
> non-reentrant.  If one part of KDE freezes, the entire system goes with it.

Hmm...  My KDE desktop *did* lock up once, after I switched to a console
with Ctrl-Alt-F2 and back to X a few times.  I had to hit reset.  I
could move the mouse and scroll the X virtual screen, and I think the
network services were still running, but I couldn't get the computer's
attention in any way.  I am still using Beta 1 though.  I'll upgrade
when Beta 3 comes out.  And it *usually* works just fine when switching
in and out of X.

If only I had my ethernet setup working so I could telnet in from my
laptop and kill X......

"win95 n. 32 bit extensions for a 16 bit
patch to an 8 bit operating system originally
coded for a 4 bit microprocessor by a 2 bit
company that can't handle 1 bit of competition."