Re: gEDA-user: PCB Gtk port

[Dave McGuire <mcguire@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:00 PM, Daniel Nilsson wrote:
> >   Yes, it is ridiculous for GTK+ to *require* fancy font-handling
> > techniques for applications that do not require them.  Doing TrueType
> > fonts and antialiasing for menu choice is just plain excessive.
> >
> >   Especially when it means the application will only run under Linux.
>
> Why do you say that? GTK+ application runs under a wide variety of
> operating systems.

  Well, if you can get it built.  I finally did, and it broke 
EVERYTHING ELSE on that machine...I went to start up gnome-terminal on 
one of my SunRays and it blew up complaining about my display lacking 
the RENDER extension.  So anything that links against GTK+ will now 
automatically require that optional X server extension that is nowhere 
near universally implemented.  This strikes me as a very large problem.

> >   I think the situation would be much better if GTK+ were able to be
> > built either with or without Pang/XFT/Xrender/etc, and just use X's
> > regular font system.  That would cut the number of dependencies down 
> > to
> > something manageable, and it would restore portability.
>
> I disagree. What I believe is needed in the current situation related
> to fonts and X is not more options and ways to configure things, it's
> less options.

  Less options is exactly what we have now.  It *requires* an optional 
extension to the X server.  It *requires* expat (why it thinks it needs 
XML, who knows), and it even *requires* an expat header file that isn't 
installed in a default expat installation.  It *requires* you to have a 
large set of largely Linux-specific libraries installed.  It *requires* 
that said packages be of specific versions.  None of these things are 
optional.  We have exactly ONE way to configure things...you really 
can't get any fewer options than that.

>  I think what happened was that there was a need for
> better looking fonts under X and many different and incompatible
> libraries were developed to support this. Now it finally seems like we
> are at a point were things are converging around freetype2 and it's
> dependencies. Lets not try to go back and add more configuration
> options - it's hard enough to configure a working font system as it is
> and I wouldn' like to see applications that now requires me to tweak
> yet another aspect of the fonts installed on my box.

  There's nothing wrong with freetype...it seems to be about as 
portable as any software can be.  The problem (well, this problem in 
particular) stems from the way GTK+ (or more properly Pango) insists on 
getting the characters to the display...via Xft and the RENDER 
extension.  These are not freetype's dependencies...they are Pango's 
and GTK+'s.

  Simply not requiring a large set of whiz-bang OPTIONAL EXTENSIONS to 
the X server does not and will not constitute a need for you to tweak 
yet another aspect of the fonts installed on your box.  The core X font 
mechanism isn't going away...If your machine is running X, it can 
handle the same fonts X has had for nearly fifteen years.  Those fonts 
are perfectly adequate for things like drop-down menus and dialog boxes 
for a PCB layout tool.  As someone mentioned earlier, we're not 
building a word processor here.

  That said though, I'd love to see nicely antialiased fonts 
everywhere...but Pango's insistence that it needs to use Xft/RENDER to 
actually get them from freetype to the display is ludicrous, 
unnecessarily limiting, and has just cost me two days of time.  At 
least making *THAT PART* optional would be a huge win...it'd mean 
people outside of the Linux world, and people without fans on their 
graphics cards, could actually run this tool.

          -Dave

--
Dave McGuire              "I've watched Harley people throw up
Cape Coral, FL                      on the ceiling."    -Krissi