Re: gEDA-user: Help request

[al davis <ad106@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Friday 16 June 2006 16:21, Svenn Are Bjerkem wrote:
> What is it with Ubuntu or Kubuntu that makes you _not_ use
> Debian directly?

I use Debian directly, but I think I can explain it...  

First, take a look at what Debian offers...  There are 3 
variants:  "stable", "testing" and "unstable". 

"Stable" is in the opinion of many, too stable for comfort.  It 
has two important distinguishing characteristics.  The first is 
that it is reputed to be extremely reliable, making it well 
suited for servers that absolutely must work, with a minimum of 
down time.  The second is that it is a long time between 
releases, and even when a version is released it is a year or 
so behind.  With a 2 year release cycle, this means it is about 
3 years behind when the next major release comes out.  I have 
heard it called "Debian Fossil".  This is ok for a server, 
usually, but "desktop" users usually want something more 
recent.  It gets a lot of criticism for this.  Between major 
updates, the only changes important bug fixes.  Security 
related bugs are addressed very fast.  When there is such a fix 
in a new "upstream" release of a package, they won't use the 
new release.  Instead, they patch the old release to fix the 
bug.

On the other extreme is "unstable" which tries to be always 
current.  It usually includes the most recent "stable" release 
of most packages.  It usually doesn't go so far as the 
development snapshots.  To do this, it means daily updates.  
Sometimes a single package can be updated several times in a 
week.  Occasionally it breaks.

"Testing" is somewhere in between, but much closer 
to "unstable".  Basically, if a package survives 10 days 
without serious bug reports in "unstable", it automatically 
moves to "testing".  There are daily updates, but they are not 
as big as in "unstable".  When a package is so volatile to be 
itself updated daily, these versions do not propagate 
to "testing".  Occasionally it breaks.

This set of 3 does not provide what a typical casual desktop 
user wants, which is fairly stable, but not so much as to be 
years behind.

Debian is a distribution for techies.  There are certain aspects 
of it that make it appeal to the more technically oriented.  
Beginners are often intimidated by this.

Looking at these two issues, this is where Ubuntu comes in.  It 
provides a sort-of stable release, with major updates about 
twice a year, then holding except for important updates between 
them.  As I understand, they take a snapshot of Debian (testing 
or unstable, I am not sure which), freeze it, and harden a 
subset of packages that are important to mainstream desktop 
users.  It is a similar process to Debian stable, but only on a 
subset of the packages and a subset of the platforms.  This 
becomes the "main" part of the distribution.  The rest of 
Debian becomes the "universe" part of the distribution, without 
any additional testing.  You need to enable the universe.  It 
is off by default.  It is a check box in the graphic installer.

The latest version (Dapper) of Ubuntu has a graphic installer 
and a live CD.  You can run off the CD like Knoppix with a 
subset of the packages.  Then click the install icon to install 
on your hard disk if you want.  It is a nice graphic installer, 
with a few issues that are expected on a first release.  The 
previous release (Breezy) used the Debian installer.

There are several variants of Ubuntu, but they are all on an 
equal level, with different focuses.  There is "kubuntu" which 
substitutes KDE for Gnome.  There is a server version.  There 
are a few others.

As I understand, Ubuntu gives the changes back to Debian, which 
it respects as sort of a master distribution.  Lots of the 
Debian packages do have Ubuntu entries in the change logs.

So, it is a fairly up-to-date, newbie friendly variant of 
Debian.  I think of it as the Debian variant between stable and 
testing.

When you want to move on to Debian (testing or unstable), just 
change some info in /etc/apt/sources.list, then "sudo apt-get 
update" and "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade".

Regarding Stuart's comment about a disproportionate share of 
install problems on Ubuntu (but not Debian).  The difference is 
that Ubuntu, being more newbie friendly and being marketed as 
such, attracts more newbies who are likely to have trouble by 
overlooking things that people who have been around consider 
obvious.  I think it is good that it is bringing these people 
into the fold, who would still be on MS-Windows otherwise.  
Most of them who try to use the CD don't realize that Ubuntu 
packages for gEDA already exist.  You just need to "sudo 
apt-get install geda".

I am not trying to convince anyone to use any particular 
distribution.  I am just conveying what I believe their intent 
is.
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