Re: VoIP telephony building like Tor

["Alexander Cherepanov" <cherepan@xxxxxxxx>]

Hi Scott!
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:16:29 -0500 (CDT), Scott Bennett <bennett@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>      On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 22:04:11 +0400 "Alexander Cherepanov"
> <cherepan@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>You wrote to or-talk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Vlad \"SATtva\" Miller" <sattva@xxxxxxxxx> on Sat, 25 Jul 2009 06:59:43 -0500 (CDT):
>>
>>>      On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:12:52 +0700 "Vlad \"SATtva\" Miller" <sattva@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>James Brown (25.07.2009 00:16):
>>[skip]
>>>>> Very many Russian people were killed, unlawful arrest or simply
>>>>> disappear last 4 - 5 years from activity our new Government...
>>>>
>>>>Please, please, keep political FUD off the list.
>>
>>>      Given that what he wrote is about a) events reported in the press
>>> internationally and b) one of the highest priority justifications for
>>> having a tor development project in the first place, *your* comment
>>> would appear to be a non sequitur.  Perhaps you should have changed
>>> your Subject: line to reflect whatever OT issue you wished to discuss
>>> instead of what was already being discussed.
>>>      The OP has requested information, and several of us now have tried
>>> to find information that he might be able to use to his advantage in
>>> the situation he believes he faces.  If you have additional information
>>> along these lines, please post it.
>>
>>I'm sure that Vlad is happy to see the ongoing discussion of technical 
>>questions raised by the OP. He just asked to keep political FUD off 
> 
>      He gave no such indication in the single line of text that constituted
> his followup and to which I was following up.

Ok, I cannot guarantee that he is happy about technical questions:-)
But he clearly toalks about non-technical points.

>>the list. And I'm completely agree with him, IMHO unfounded (and 
>>founded probably also:-) talks about bloody regime are not for this 
>>mailing list. YMMV.
> 
>      Please reread what I wrote that you have quoted above.  It doesn't
> matter whether you support or oppose the OP's political views.  

Sure. But only while he keeps his political views for himself and 
doesn't bring them to this list.

> The point
> is that the OP made apparent reference to events reported both in the press
> in Russia and in the international press as a reason *he* was afraid and
> wanted to use tor.  That should be more than sufficient information for
> anyone on this list to understand the OP's motivation for asking his
> questions.

Just to be sure: you talk about banning Skype? No problem here, it's a 
valid concern, it's in the news, in the press, on TV etc.

The problem is the rhetoric such as quoted at beginning of this mail. 
OP started the thread talking about bloody regime. IMHO it already is 
beyond the acceptable line. But then he continues about killed people 
etc. in the following mails. That very much brings the politics to the 
list and adds nothing to the technical side of discussions.

>>As for banning Skype in Russia, AFAICT it's FUD also. Everything seems 
>>to be based on some discussions in The Russian Union of Industrialists 
>>and Entrepreneurs (just hysterics by mobile operators loosing market 
>>share?). It's somewhat troubling but I'm not sure it's worth much 
>>discussion until there are some concrete details.
> 
>      Fair enough.  However, if Phil Zimmermann had waited until the FBI
> had its Carnivore system up and running, along with further development
> already in progress, we probably would never have gotten PGP or its
> successors.  He dropped all of his paying work for many months in order
> to design, code, test, and release PGP 1.0, all justified *in his own mind*
> on the basis of what he had heard or read that the FBI was talking about
> doing.

One doesn't need to wait for additional reasons to switch away from 
Skype. It's proprietary and closed technology with all accompanying 
problems. BTW last news are about eBay possibly closing Skype entirely 
which is quite in line with its proprietary nature. So no question 
here.

If someone is concerned about possibility of banning Skype or VoIP in 
general s/he can start with research how VoIP is banned in those 
countries in which it's already banned. There are some examples in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoIP#Legal_issues .

>>What the OP proposes is also somewhat strange. Build the possibility 
>>to "call to ordina[r]y telephones" into Tor? Sure, just add some PSTN 
>>exit nodes...
>>
>      Yeah, well, that is certainly unnecessary.  Specific applications
> should be developed outside of tor by interested parties.  I already worry
> that tor itself will become too large and complex to be kept safe to use.
> There are already various telephone applications that might be modified
> to work with proxy support that would enable the use of tor with them.

BTW it seems Google Voice can be used to hide origin of phone calls in 
some cases.

Alexander Cherepanov