Re: gEDA-user: Yet another netlister

[John Doty <jpd@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Aug 10, 2009, at 8:19 AM, A.Burinskiy wrote:

> On 08/10/2009 06:03 AM, John Doty wrote:
>> On Aug 9, 2009, at 9:59 PM, A.Burinskiy wrote:
>>
>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> Do you mean that one day source= attribute is reference to  
>>> schematic,
>>> another day it is something else?
>>>
>>
>> No, I mean that many back ends need to see a flat netlist, while in
>> the future others will need to see the hierarchy. The ones that need
>> to see the hierarchy will need to see the source= attributes. All of
>> them.
>>
>>
> If I'm correct source= has the same meaning regardless flat or
> hierarchical netlist.

I agree. But how it's to be *processed* depends on the needs of the  
netlist back end. It'd be nice, for example, to have a gnetlist back  
end that can extract the dependency graph for a hierarchical design.  
In the past, my tool for doing that has been a Japanese grad  
student. ;-)

>>> We have to stick to some reasonable
>>> meaning of all attributes, at list to be able to exchange libraries
>>> and
>>> collect our work over the years, isn't it?
>>>
>>
>> Yes. That's one reason I recommended you master the documentation for
>> spice-sdb before writing another SPICE netlister.
>>
> I think I'm getting closer to what you mean, but not yet there. I  
> think
> about expanding routin for some back end, but still thinking what  
> lang.
> I should use for that. May be simpliest would be something like
> printf %refdes %net %attr ?

Anything less flexible than gnetlist is undesirable. But perhaps you  
could create a gnetlist back end that accepts a simplified "program"  
to deal with simple cases. We already have one of these, the "bom"  
back end.

> Rather then full blown language? Guile too
> complex for this simple task.

Guile complex? Oh, come on. But maybe I should write a Logo parser to  
put atop it. Been years since I wrote a parser for a programming  
language, but it's not hard, especially for a language as simple as  
Logo. Difficult to complain that a language third graders can learn  
is complex, although third graders are often more receptive to new  
ideas and more resourceful at applying them than many  
"professionals" ;-)

But the important thing to understand is that we have a big  
investment in Guile. All those gnetlist back ends are important  
assets. And their existence shows how effectively gEDA empowers  
people who have a skosh of resourcefulness.

> Any way the most critical for me now is
> waveform viewer. I found that existing few do not fit the purpose, and
> I'm dealing with that. If you convince me I will do two tasks in || -
> and will write backend.

>>
>>> Talking about ynetlist: it has exactly front, inner, and backend. I
>>> call
>>> it component/net collection, symbol elaboration, output netlist. By
>>> modifying only output I may create any netlist. But yet I do not  
>>> see a
>>> reason why user should mangle with programming.... It is programmer
>>> responsibility to cover all needs.
>>>
>>
>> I absolutely and emphatically disagree. Users cannot count on
>> programmers to solve the right problems. Programmers are masters of
>> technique, but the most important knowledge needed to make a
>> successful program is understanding of the *application*. Users need
>> to take that responsibility.
>>
>> It's similar to writing a scientific paper: a scientist must be the
>> main author. A technical writer is very useful in the process, but
>> not central. Programming is an essential enabling skill, similar to
>> technical writing. Everybody should have a reasonable level of
>> competence here. Specialist programmers are there to help produce the
>> highest quality product, not to choose how to address the problem to
>>
>
> In commercial world it is absolutely true, and I 100% agree with you.
> But we are in Open source domain. Main difference? Right! In Open  
> Source
> World the programs are written by end users!

Yes. And the success of gnetlist shows how empowering it is to end  
users.

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd@xxxxxxxxx




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