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Re: gEDA-user: PCB Gtk port

On Feb 28, 2005, at 10:36 PM, Marvin Dickens wrote:
Well...Linux users, not Linux/*NIX users.

Yes, UNIX as well as Linux. Any UNIX, any *NIX like system and Linux. 

  ...whose X servers implement the RENDER extension.

XFT has no configuration mechanism itself, but relies on the fontconfig
library to configure and customize fonts. The XFT library is not specific to
XFree86 or indeed, any particular font output mechanism.

I am aware of that. I've spent the past two days "all up in there" with that code. The problem is that Pango uses an optional extension that is not universally implemented to get the freetype-generated glyphs to the display. I've stated this repeatedly.

Well, in addition to the fact that it's like pulling teeth to get all this [barely-portable and often GCC-specific] source code to compile in the first place, but all that takes is a whole lot of caffeine and an even temper.

Examples of various UNIX running XFT include: 
  [excellent list of backed-up examples deleted]

That library is not specific to XFree86 or indeed on any particular font
output mechanism.

I believe this is incorrect. The output mechanism that is required is the X RENDER extension. I would LOVE to find out that I'm wrong about this.

   My current-model SunRay clients running current software on the
current release of the OS is "1988"?  Umm no, I don't think so.  "Not
Linux" does not mean "Not Current".

I never said anything about SunRay clients or any other OS. I don't know what
your talking about. 

  SunRays are thin clients that run from Solaris and Linux systems.

I was talking about the application gtk-pcb only. Also,
because of the way XFT works, a system could have gtk-pcb installed and
utilizing XFT and no other app even knows of its exitance because it is
implimented as a library (That is, XFT). APS that do not have hooks into
the library won't use it.

...but it won't actually *run* without the RENDER extension, which not all X servers have.

Yet further...By its very definition an X11 "extension" is optional.
You are suggesting that it is somehow acceptable to require an
optional extension to the X server just to run this application. That
is nothing short of absurd. It is possible to write this functionality
in a portable way, and not sacrifice ANYTHING.

If this is really what you think, I'll sight (With references - Do a quick
google and you'll see ) libs that are perported to be extensions in SunRay
clients that if removed will break the app.

Do you see any references that state that the SunRay X server implements the RENDER extension? Because it doesn't, at least not as of release 2 of the SunRay server software. If you don't believe me, I can show you the output of xdpyinfo.

Just because it's java means nothing.

SunRays have *nothing* to do with Java, except for some of the smart card software which, as near as I can tell, nobody runs.

   The fact that you would willingly sacrifice portability (one of the
original goals of the program we're discussing) for such fluff as
ANTIALIASED FONTS IN PULL-DOWN MENUS is quite disturbing and frankly
has no place here.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am. But, *telling* me that my opinion
has no place here because I don't agree with you won't do at all. In fact, it
is rude. 

  Oh here we go.

I accept the fact that, in your opinion, just because YOU run Linux it's JUST FINE to take a portable program and make it Linux-specific. However, this constitutes YOU vocally supporting an action that will screw me out of a tool that I like and use.

  THAT is rude.

And so is taking the attitude that anyone not running Linux on PCs is "1988".

That's aside from the fact that they can be
implemented JUST FINE in a portable way with no sacrifice whatsoever.
Modern fonts are not the problem...as I've said repeatedly, the problem
is not with Freetype, but with the mechanism Pango uses to get the
Freetype-generated glyphs into the widgets. Are you missing that
point?

With things the way the are right now, many all popular libraries including
GTK (And now the new GUI to PCB) use supporting libs

Many? I use ONE program that requires that library, and I sit in front of a keyboard all day, every day. You seem to have the idea that everyone on Earth does exactly the same stuff that you do, with exactly the same tools, and everyone else is "so 1988". That would be...incorrect.

you don't like for whatever reason.

Why must you PERSIST in trying to tell me that I'm bent out of shape because I somehow "don't like" GTK+? You are wrong, I LIKE GTK+. I don't want this moved entirely to GTK+ because it WILL NOT RUN on many non-Linux systems!

Personally, I am happy that Bill took the time out of his
life to write and donate this code. I have used it, I like it, I appreciate
Bill's hard work and further, these are opinions that are not going to
change. If you don't like it, write an alternative, but there is no need to
get upset about it and flame me (Or anyone else).

I appreciate it as well. I might even like it if I could run it. You're sitting there saying "I don't care about anyone else, it works for me!" THAT presents a need to get upset and flame you.

Do you even understand any of this, or are you so sold on the whole "the penguin will take over the earth" idea that you can't imagine the possibility that some people use computers other than Linux boxes with gigantic video cards and only the absolute latest bleeding-edge releases of thirty different packages?

I could solve this problem for myself by just downgrading all of my systems to PCs. I'd lose performance, I'd lose reliability, I'd lose functionality, and I'd wind up losing my mind, so no thanks. That's one of the reasons I moved all of my projects to PCB...it is portable and runs on lots of different architectures.

  At least, for a little while longer.

            -Dave

--
Dave McGuire              "I've watched Harley people throw up
Cape Coral, FL                      on the ceiling."    -Krissi