Re: gEDA-user: gEDA DLL hell

[Karel Kulhavy <clock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 07:14:30PM +0200, Mario Klebsch wrote:
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> Hi!
> 
> Am 28.10.2005 um 16:34 schrieb Karel Kulhavy:
> >That's on you what you define to stay within. Choose it and then
> >write a guide that works there. Normal people don't mirror their
> >/usr/local across a WAN.
> 
> There is no such sing as a normal person.
> 
> >And both Linux and NetBSD I suppose have
> >/usr/local or /opt.
> 
> Wether or not a system does have /usr/local is a decision of the sysop 
> who administers the system. You would be right in stating, that most 

This is not true. a) it may be a decision of a standard (LHS), b) it may
a decision of distribution vendor (gentoo, debian etc.). /usr/local is
compulsory in both.

> admins do choose to have a /usr/local.
> 
> >Then write the procedure so it works on all of them. For example:
> >"if your system has /usr/local directory, do xxx, otherwise if it
> >has /opt directory and you can change the $PATH, do yyy, otherwise do
> >zzz."
> 
> A sysop is required to think before starting to type. There is no 

OK. gEDA is for sysops only. Sad. Eagle and Orcad are for ordinary users.
Then it's not possible to develop free technology with gEDA. What's the
difference between allowing only people who pay licence fee to Orcad
to hack Ronja source and allowing only people who are sysops to hack Ronja
sources?

> universal procedure, that copes with every possible (er even only every 
> likely) situation, which works for a typing monkey.
> 
> If it would be that easy, there would already be a cript for this job.
> 
> >>everyones needs.  By using automake and autoconf, geda automatically
> >>provides the sort of functionality though in its build system to help 
> >>it
> >>integrated into many of these different packaging systems.
> >
> >Intergrated? I wouldn't call this "integrated". This is just a mess.
> >Eagle or Orcad is what I would call integrated.
> 
> You are right, there is a lot of mess and I would be happy, if the open 
> source community would finally face these problems. This problem is NOT 

I don't care if they face the problem. What I care if the problem goes
away or not.

> >I don't care what are the 1000 reasons why gEDA must be unusable for
> >the user. People who aren't UNIX software packaging specialists want to
> >use it. Does it surprise you?
> 
> It requires at least some minimal skills to administer a UNIX system. 
> This is the reason, why administration is an explicit role.
> 
> BTW. in contrats to all marketing bubbling, it also requires immense 
> skills to administer windows systems.

It's irrelevant what skill administration takes. My friend's problem was
he was unable to install gattrib. My friend's problem was not system
administration issue.

> >If I take Orcad or Eagle, I run eagle.exe and Eagle is installed in
> >the system. If I want to deinstall, I go into Windows program list,
> >select deinstall Eagle, and it's deinstalled. The same with Orcad.
> 
> If you are satisfied with eagle or orcad, why don't you simplyuse one 
> of these programs?

Because they are not free software.

> It also is solvable for multi user systems, but in contrast to personal 
> systems, where the solution is the setup program, on multi user systems 
> the solution is the administrator.

The solution is:
a) during installation of the software, make a list of files written
b) make a geda-uninstall script which erases these files
c) put geda-uninstall into the same path as gschem

I have told you here how it is possible to solve it. Any more arguments why
it's impossible to solve?

> The administrator knows his users, so he is the one to decide how to 
> deal with this problem, He has to choose a strategy suited for his 
> users and he has to follow it.
> 
> So, ask your administrator, he will have the answers for you.

I am my administrator. I asked myself and didn't get any answer. What
you say is not true.

> >>Or maybe I've missed the point of your question...
> >
> >You probably missed the point. The point is: every user needs to
> >install, reinstall, and uninstall gEDA.
> 
> You missed the point: This is the admins job, not the users.
> 
> Although the admin usually does this, it often is possible to install 
> the software without admin privilidges at all.

Looks like I should drop the requirement on schematics and PCB written
in free software on Ronja, because there isn't any usable free software
on the Earth for schematics and PCB. gEDA is unusable. You need a system
administrator to draw simple circuit with resistor and connector.

This will effectively mean that Ronja will stop using gEDA and start
using Eagle and you will be able to scratch Ronja from projects using
gEDA.

We had issues with GNU Arch so we kicked it and replaced with SVN.
We had issues with TWiki so we kicked it and replaced with MediaWiki.
Now we have issues with gEDA, why can't we kick it and replace with Eagle?
If the users would opt between 100Mbps optical datalink and futile
attempts to persuade gEDA developers to make gEDA usable, what would
they choose? Verbal masturbation? No, 100Mbps datalink.

We cannot have 100% Free Software toolchain anyway. CPLD Twister is
in development. A free software fitter doesn't exist so we will have to
use a nonfree one. If a usable free software schematic editor and PCB
editor doesn't exist (schematic editor that cannot be used by ordinary
user is not a usable schematic editor), we will have to use a nonfree
one as well.

CL<
> 
> 73, Mario
> - -- 
> Mario Klebsch                                           mario@xxxxxxxxxx
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