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UI leader - Another Resignation!


First a short reply to this garbage.

On 03-Mar-98 Erik Walthinsen wrote:
- -> George is perfectly within his rights in responding the way he did to your 
- -> mail.  He corrected your technical mistakes (which he is correct in, btw) 
- -> and attempted to point out that Bruce is not quite the demon you make him 
- -> out to be.

What is that supposed to mean?  If you read my post again you will see that I
pointed out that I read some of these points from the Debian Web sight and
pointed your attention to it.  What he was right about added up to nothing. 

Bruce did a bunch of stuff that George said the donation money went to.  That
is not any different than taking payment for his own services.  I never said
that some weren't absolutely straight forward.  Only that they by no means add
up to what they take in.

And he is wrong when he says the majority only recently vame in.  The scedule
is posted.  They averaged approx. $500 per month and received $1500 - $2000 per
month about every other month.

As I keep saying.  His actions speak for his intentions.

- -> When you suggest things such as you did in your first message, you must be 
- -> willing to accept corrections and admonitions.  George is willing to do
- -> that.

I don't care about corrections.  But he attempted to justify the spending by
quoting things that Bruce did personally without mentioning that Bruce did it
himself, he didn't hire a company to do it.  Mostly.

And what he did spend doesn't add up to $10.000 or anyplace near it.

- -> In fact, George has been willing to swallow an awful lot of flaming from
- -> you, and I admire him for that.

Here lies the problem.  I began by nicely pointing out were he is dead wrong. 
He wouldn't accept it and continued to argue, not only with me but several
other members and leaders.

Instead of seeing the problem that has been uttered over and over and over by
quite a few of us you see only the flames.  You don't even seem to read the
"calm" replies.  You only stepped in and said something when  a flame war
began.  This implied agreement with George who was dead wrong in a lot of cases.

- -> Yes, I am telling you to take the personal debate about Bruce offline.
- -> I am not telling you to take any debate about how it affected SEUL offline.

That was the point.  It does effect SEUL.  If you had taken the time to check
into it when I first elluded to this 3 months ago he wouldn't have been in a
position to steal developers in the first place.  But Bruce wouldn't do that,

It wasn't me that stared at my screen for 15 min's in shock.  I knew it was
comming.  Not so blatently but I knew he would do it.  How?  Conspireacy theory
as a private poster has said?  Not!  It's fact.  

- -> And to the degree that it impacts SEUL, it is a valid topic.  But the 
- -> thread has long since turned into personal debating about an absent third
- -> party.

If that's all you see you remain blind.  Does it take a 2x4 up side your head
or what?  I have been using and following Debian for over 3 years and you, with
little knowledge of it, are going to tell me I'm wrong?  Get a clue.

Ask Linus what he thinks of Debian and Bruce Perins.

Let me point out a few problems I've noticed and been quite annoyed with since
day one.

You do nothing!  I have been sitting with a complete GUI package for over a
month now.  I sit with it waiting for something to happen but nothing does.

You don't respond!  I have repeadedly asked you for info and all I get is a web
page to look at that doesn't answer the question, or no response at all.  Seems
you're too busy doing whatever you do.

You sit idle in IRC.  I tried to discuss things with you in IRC but I sit there
for hours and you never answer me.  You just stay joined but pay no attention. 

Me and Orn work on refining the GUI and we get you telling us to make web pages
and documentation.  You don't even have a clue what you want the GUI to be and
you want us to write documentation?

You mention all these grand ideas and do nothing to build them.

The only time I've seen you show involvement is the last week talking about XDM.

You have, 3 times I think, stated you are going to post something about the CVS
and I never see anything.  

You have said you are going to post guidlines or some such thing to get the ball
rolling and...nothing.

You once posted that you would be needing some kind of doc's from us and you
would let us know what...nothing.

I emailed you and asked what doc's you needed and you never responded.

I finally caught somebody alive on IRC and asked, after 3 days of trying, what
doc's you wanted and got pointed to a web page that said the UI section was all

The web site has not changed even when I have repeatedly asked about that UI

Me and Orn come up with some very good ways of getting around GNOME not being
ready and you say no GNOME is the way and the light.  Which means we have to
sit idle for a year waiting for it.

You contradict yourself.  You have been saying all along that SEUL won't be out
until the end of 98 at the earliest, yet Jean critiqued that and you then say
you want it out in the next few months.  I talked ectensively with you about
this in the very beginning and you were unbendable about it taking until the
end of 98.  Now you act as if your plan all along was to get it out in a month
or two.

One minute you're 100% Debian and the next RH and the next whoever, the next
there has not yet been a decision.

You do nothing to advance the project but have no problems barking orders at
leaders.  If we are doing the packages, the documentation, and the web pages,
what in the hell are you doing?  You aren't available to answer questions.  You
must be doing something.  Or are you?

You say I am hurting SEUL by talking such issues.  I say you are killing SEUL
by doing nothing but trying to micro-manage, when you actually do anything.  Or
can you kill a dead horse.

You want all of us to have this professional persona n the lists.  Ok, I can
see it in the public lists, but not the leaders list, which shouldn't be posted
on the web page anyway.  If you think one guy is going to want to remain
involved when he wants to package a good RH or Slack pkg and has somebody, not
nesissarily George, arguing with him about another distro's similar package and
finally telling him "I'm doing it this way and that's final".  If you think
that individual will remain in the project you are sadly mistaken.

I talked in length about the under-handedness Bruce has shown and was attacked
in response from some sick desire to pretend we are all one big family in the
Linux world.  Now let me tell you what I left out.

Although under-handed, I don't blame a single programmer for leaving.  I would
be supprised if they don't all leave.  This is a dead project and they have
been invited to join Debian and do the same work on a thriving distro.  They
may not like Debian, or Bruce, or whatever, but they know they can get results.
 The end justifies the means.

You say I'm hurting your distro?  I think your distro was sick and dying long
before I joined.  I have had several private posts from other members and
leaders who have agreed with me, but remained silent for whatever reasons, one
of whom just resigned.  I have had far fewer replies that dissagree with me.  2
as a matter of fact.

So go your merry way.  Keep admiring "calm" people who are driving others from
the project in droves.  And flame those that call a black kettle black so they

If I was/am so wrong about Bruce, why was I the one that didn't bat an eye when
he stole developers?  And you tell me not to demonize hime blah blah blah. 
Those must be some set of rose colored glasses.

You trying to tell me he did it by accident?  "Oooopsie, my bad, sorry, Omega!"

I resign this chicken-shit outfit.  Purge me immediately from the mailing list
etc.  I don't want to receive any more of these damned unsub authorization

Good luck, Orn.  You're the only one left that really knows what he's doing,
save those that have just been lurking etc.  you know who you are.

- ---
E-Mail: Cyberdyn@seul.org       Date: 03-Mar-98        Time: 19:06:58
Martin was probably ripping them off.  That's some family, isn't it?
Incest, prostitution, fanaticism, software.
                -- Charles Willeford, "Miami Blues"

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