Re: gEDA-user: spNet v0.9.2 released

["John P. Doty" <jpd@xxxxxxxxx>]

Anthony Shanks wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:39 PM, John P. Doty<jpd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>   
>> Anthony Shanks wrote:
>>     
>>> I suppose makefiles are a matter of perspective. What you call
>>> flexibility I call a missing feature. In my opinion a robust spice
>>> netlister includes hierarchical netlisting and other features I
>>> included in spNet that I see out in industry. In your opinion
>>> netlisters should be bare bones and makefiles should be included in
>>> your flow.
>>>       
>> One of the best programmers of all time once said "A program should do
>> one thing well". So much waste could be avoided if people would just
>> understand this simple principle.
>>
>>     
>
> Ok? Not sure how this is relevant to spNet.
>   

When program 1 does function X, and program 2 does function Y, and they 
don't get in each others' way, it is folly to combine functions. 
Gnetlist is a *wonderful* netlister, radically flexible. Make is a 
wonderful orchestrator of processes and combiner of the results, 
radically flexible and efficient. It makes no sense to make something 
that cannot do a single thing that the combination of make and gnetlist 
can do, but combines them in a way that's much less flexible.

>   
>>>  Ok thats fine. Whats the problem here? Are you always this
>>> hostile to people who try to contribute to the community?
>>>       
>> You have spread serious misinformation on this list.
>>
>> You claim hierarchical netlists cannot be generated using gnetlist.
>>     
>
> I said gnetlist cannot generate hierarchical schematics. How is that not true?
>   

It's like saying your car can't go coast to coast. Of course it can't by 
itself, it needs a driver, gasoline stations, etc. Gnetlist does a 
wonderful job of creating netlists. Orchestrating SPICE hierarchy using 
gnetlist is a trivial scripting problem: it doesn't require a whole new 
tool. But you are welcome to provide such a tool: it won't be able to do 
most of the things you can do with the existing kit, but that's OK. You 
are not welcome to lie about the existing toolkit.

>   
>> You have misrepresented how the existing gEDA SPICE netlisting works in
>> other ways: you plainly don't understand the usage of the model= and
>> model-name= attributes.
>>
>> That makes me hostile.
>>
>>     
>
> I'm not misrepresenting anything.

Of course you are. I have working silicon that proves you can construct 
hierarchical SPICE netlists using the existing toolkit.

>  All I stated in my original post is
> that I created a netlister that does hierarchical netlisting among
> other feature that gnetlist doesn't provide.

The toolkit that includes gnetlist provides them.

>  Which is true.

Only in a narrow, legalistic sense. Misrepresentation.

>  Why would
> that make you or anybody else hostile?

Because you are making false claims.

>  Others here are appreciating my
> work without being hostile nor have I been hostile to anybody on this
> list, nor have I insulted anyone.
>   

The people who seem to appreciate your work don't seem to understand 
gEDA. They expect something like the "do everything poorly with one 
tool" approach that is so distressingly common in software these days. A 
kit of tools, each of which does one thing well, is alien. But that's 
gEDA, that's its strength.

>   
>>> As someone
>>> who is relatively new to the gEDA community I saw a huge gap in
>>> gnetlist and gspiceui for people interested in using gEDA for IC
>>> simulations so I thought I'd contribute.
>>>       
>> The gap is largely a result of not doing your homework. Study Stuart's
>> stuff first.
>>
>>     
>
> I admit I am not a veteran of the gEDA community but in my opinion I
> am filling a gap that the gEDA flow doesn't offer out of the box.

You say that out of ignorance. You haven't done your homework.

>  If
> you disagree that's fine but no reason to be hostile about it.
>   

If your tool is a good tool, you should not need to sell it by claiming 
the existing tools have limitations that only reflect your refusal to 
use the whole toolkit. Most of us don't need a hammer that also 
functions as a saw, and if you'd created one and claimed "you can't 
build a house with a hammer" it would be a misrepresentation.

>   
>>>  I started with making a new
>>> netlister and plan on making a new simulation gui comparable to what
>>> you see in industry. Again, why so hostile? This is the first time
>>> I've contributed to a open source project and never thought I'd be met
>>> with such hostility.
>>>
>>>       
>> Contributions are welcome. Misinformation isn't.
>>     
>
> Again, where have I given any misinformation? All you have done so far
> is prove there are workarounds the current flow.
>   

You don't understand a modular toolkit. Using each simple tool to do its 
job, and not burdening other tools with that job, is  not a 
"workaround": on the contrary it is the best way to get work done.

>   
>> On the positive side, your netlister does not get in the way: it is a
>> separate program that one can ignore. That's a good thing. But please,
>> don't claim advantages where you are ignorant of what you're comparing
>> it to. From where I sit, gnetlist is an amazing tool. It's the main
>> thing that makes gEDA a superior toolkit.
>>
>>     
>
> I'm glad you're so warm and welcoming to outsiders.
>   

It has nothing to do with inside versus outside (I lock horns with 
insiders, too, when they threaten to push gEDA toward their specific 
scenarios rather than exploit its radical flexibility). You are welcome 
to contribute. Your misleading claims are not welcome, however. If you 
were to offer the opinion that you believe your tool is easier to use 
than the existing kit in the special circumstances it's designed for, 
I'd probably agree that for some that would be true. And I would hope 
Ales would be pleased to include it in the gEDA distribution. Why must 
you badmouth our existing toolkit?

-- 
John Doty      Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd@xxxxxxxxx 



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